From Psych Ward to Purpose: Tim Brown’s Recovery Story

Fifteen years ago today, Tim Brown was in a psychiatric ward, struggling with addiction and a distorted sense of reality. Now he's the founder of a successful marketing agency helping contractors across the country. This profound synchronicity frames our powerful conversation about recovery, purpose, and the journey to authentic success.

Tim's story isn't just about quitting substances—it's about discovering a new way of living. We explore how recovery provides a framework for rebuilding your internal compass after addiction disrupts your ability to trust your instincts. Tim shares how he's replaced artificial highs with genuine adventures, from silent meditation retreats that brought him to tears to swimming with sharks and building businesses that serve others.

The conversation takes fascinating turns as we examine the parallels between recovery principles and business ethics. Tim reveals how his approach to marketing for home service contractors mirrors his philosophy of recovery—creating genuine value, practicing  radical honesty, and ensuring every exchange benefits both parties. We dive deep into the psychology of sales, discussing how to create authentic connections without manipulation.

Perhaps most movingly, Tim opens up about overcoming self-sabotage and learning self-compassion. "How would I treat a friend?" becomes his guiding question in both personal and professional life. He explains the fundamental difference between simply abstaining from substances and truly recovering—finding meaning, purpose, and joy through service to others.

Whether you're in recovery yourself, know someone who is struggling, or simply want to live with greater authenticity and purpose, Tim's journey offers profound wisdom about what it means to let go of control and find your true north. Join us for this candid, inspiring conversation about transformation and the unexpected gifts that can emerge from our darkest moments.

https://coreyberrier.gumroad.com/

Chapters

• 0:00 Tim's 15-Year Sobriety Anniversary
• 7:36 Psychedelics and Consciousness
• 13:38 Adventure and Finding Meaning
• 17:51 Silent Retreat Experience
• 23:48 Google Marketing for Contractors
• 32:13 Sales Ethics and Connection
• 43:02 Self-Sabotage and Recovery
• 57:55 Recovery Benefits and Sponsorship
• 1:07:25 The Value of Recovery Communities

Transcript

Corey Berrier: 1:27

Welcome to the Successful Life Podcast. I'm your host, Corey Berrier, and I'm here with my man, Tim Brown. What's up, brother? What's up? Thanks for having me on again, brother. I know a lot of folks in recovery. Anyway don't necessarily believe in coincidences or that we tie this interesting meaning to things that I don't know. It feels let me think about how to say this. This is going to sound ridiculous, but it's almost like I can buy into the spirituality side of it if there's a meaning behind everything.

Tim Brown: 2:16

Yeah, and then I was saying that I think sometimes people swing too far in that direction. Potentially, I believe that I am one of those people that likes to make things mean something, sometimes too much. Or you'll talk to somebody who literally won't move their chair if they don't pray about it first, or something like that. And I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying, wow, that's a lot of responsibility. And you're saying if something went wildly wrong and you'd held, like for your wife got in a car accident and you'd held her up for a few minutes, that if it was supposed to happen that might screw with your head. So when negative things happen, or seemingly negative things, that would be scary to think everything was exactly how it's supposed to be constantly. I understand that, but I like synchronicities, I like serendipity and I think I believe it's a good one.

Tim Brown: 3:19

I haven't been asked to be on a podcast about recovery in years. And then you said, hey, let's get on a podcast about recovery. And it just happened that you couldn't do it a week and a half ago and then you rescheduled to today with no awareness whatsoever that this was also my 15th sober anniversary. So 15 years ago I was in a psych ward and believing in so many synchronicities that I was a little over on that idea. But I was also on a lot of psychedelics. So it wasn't just I was this serendipity king over here. I was also on a lot of psychedelics, but anyways, I love having synchronicities and serendipities today. Synchronicities and serendipities. Today, I think my main thing is that I want to be a child of God and I want to live in right relation to the people around me and hopefully live in accordance with my own internal principles as much as I possibly can today, and that's a big ideal, what I'm shooting for with my recovery.

Corey Berrier: 4:35

So if you know for people that are let's say, they're newly in recovery, listen to this. If I get an internal let's call it discernment about a situation or about a person, when I first got sober I felt is this my will or is it the discernment? And still, sometimes, to this day, I'll question whether it's, because if it's something I really want to happen, then I have to question like, how much of is it me or how much of it is alignment?

Tim Brown: 5:05

Yeah, and I think a lot of that, the lack of clarity there that sometimes happens, is partly related to the alcohol and drinking and, for me, drug use, stuff that I used to do because I had ways to trick myself into feeling good about my decisions, even when they weren't great decisions, and some of them came from supposed instincts. Deep down Maybe we're like where does God live in my body? The back of my head? Somewhere in there he's tickling. He's usually a small quiet voice, right, or it is small quiet voice or however you want to say it. But I but deep down I had this instinct to to continue to get dopamine, and part of that was through the trick of all these substances, and so I think you probably have to spend a little bit more time deciphering than somebody who wasn't addicted to things. I think that confuses our whole brain, chemicals and as I do think, as time goes on, as being in recovery, I think that there's a more confidence at least, or at least I feel a little closer to, like my internal compass seems calibrated. Yeah, but that's the thing is like.

Tim Brown: 6:24

Why people say you need to stay in recovery or part of a community is because it doesn't necessarily just happen because you're sober. It happens because you're creating deeper connections with human beings and making a spiritual gravity force around. What is your actual like north star you know what I mean which is on my. It's a mixture like conscience and then also like outside people that that love me, actually telling me, yeah, you're doing the right things. Like that's one. One of the ways I know is like the help from other people that actually have my best interests in mind and I got around a lot more people like that, not to say the people, yeah, a lot more people like that in recovery and I still love a lot of the people I used to hang out with and some of them are dead.

Tim Brown: 7:23

But that tends to happen as well. If you're really partying pretty hard, some of them don't survive. You mentioned psychedelics.

Corey Berrier: 7:29

That's certainly partying pretty hard. Some of them don't survive. You mentioned psychedelics. That's certainly part of my story, even after I stopped drinking. Now, to be clear, microdosing I don't do anything a little bit, so if I microdose, it was like every day, right, Every other three days or whatever. But I do believe there was a level of consciousness that came along with that, and I'll tell you what. When I really realized it was 2020, when COVID happened, it was clear as day what was going on to me. Like there was no. I understood exactly what was going on. It was-boggling to me that everybody didn't understand what was going on, but then you got to disassociate from everything happening and watching people migrate in herds to this narrative that was happening and it was just mind. It was mind-blowing to me. Do you think that psychedelics cake brought you to a level of consciousness that maybe you wouldn't have gotten to otherwise?

Tim Brown: 8:38

yeah, that's kind of a funny. Yeah, I used to really feel that way, like very strongly, and I was like I still don't resent or I'm not mad at I did a, a lot of mushrooms. But I usually do like macro doses, heroic doses maybe even sometimes. But I think for me, I don't think I was quite using them in a spiritual way. I'm not even saying that there's anything wrong with that or I am very open. I'm okay with everyone's take on this stuff. For me it's not me at this point, but I definitely thought I had unlocked some things that were creative and maybe a little spiritual. Like I was. I used them occasionally to go into certain things. Like I was really into joseph Campbell, the hero with a thousand faces, and his basically studying of legends and oral traditions of the hero's journey, and I think because I was trying to be an artist and musician and trying to unearth truths about the human spirit and stuff like that. That's how I felt at the time.

Tim Brown: 9:55

Now, as time has gone on now I'm 15 years sober and I haven't done anything like that in a long time I think I let the like idea that psychedelics unlock a ton of things kind of fade for me, and I'm not even saying that it's wrong, I'm saying that I didn't feel like that was. I think sometimes it might be even like it could be a cheat code. It could be a cheat code. And then for me now is weirder, deeper ways to tease out some of those insights. Like I went on a three-day meditation retreat, I've swam with sharks and scuba dived. You learn to control your breath and you learn to not panic. And I've hung out with great, incredible home service contractors that taught me about the way that there's a lot of stress as you're doing that right, because you're building a business. That taught me the ways that they found to satisfaction in life that wasn't related to just money anymore, that they, they like, had gone beyond where they needed anything else through stoicism and other ways like so the beauty and adventure that I find. Now to me it feels more rooted and a little like more controlled in a way that feels correct and wholesome for me now, but I'm not gonna say I didn't.

Tim Brown: 11:24

I don't look back on all the psychedelic stuff or, you know, even any of the substances really in any way that negates anything I learned or thought I learned at the time the creative impulses that I exercised and strengthened during those times. I don't look at it like I want to separate my life completely away from all that. I think of it as a continuation of the search for adventure and I take a lot of adventures now and part of that has been making a business and trying to do something really rewarding that way. But then also it's like learning how to take back my personal life and do things I actually like and care about. As time goes on, I take Thursdays off, I take an hour every single day during the workday and I meditate and I read and journal and I'm trying to live life now with a little bit more consciousness, not just workaholism and neuroticism which I needed for the first 10 years of my business, not just workaholism and neuroticism which I needed for the first 10 years of my business, which I needed to have obsessive effort application.

Tim Brown: 12:39

But yeah, I think of it as a continuation and now I just I want to see more adventure. I'm trying to find more adventure and I think it took a while to be doing as crazy of stuff that I was doing back then and doing even crazier stuff now. That's fun. I want to live when I tell my kids these stories that they'll be like what it's wild. And you did that sober. That's so cool. Oh yeah, by the way, you should do it too. You should go climb mountains and scuba dive, and go to see gurus and mountains and do silent retreats for three days, and whatever else.

Corey Berrier: 13:17

I think that was in my neck of the woods, right Wasn't in North Carolina. You did yes.

Tim Brown: 13:21

North Carolina. By the way, that was a great experience. The art of living retreat up there is a great spot, both for a more like just a wellness retreat. You can go up there and just do acupuncture and clay and stuff, and then you can also do those like more intense, like silent retreats and stuff.

Corey Berrier: 13:39

So it's a pretty cool spot what was your biggest takeaway from that silent retreat?

Tim Brown: 13:44

who, I think, just letting go, I think, hit me like a ton of bricks, just the insignificance. You're sitting there Excuse me, I was sitting there day and a half in. The interesting thing was we didn't know if this guy was going to come. This Guru, sri Sri Ravi Shankar, never had heard of him before in my life. I think there's another guy named Ravi Shankar that plays an instrument, but not that guy.

Tim Brown: 14:10

He's taught a lot of people how to meditate and he's been involved with de-escalation of violent conflicts. The meditation stuff has gone to prisons and young people. Basically, his meditation style is now it's called sky breath and it's everywhere and he believes that anxiety is like the fundamental component that leads to like war and conflict and so he believes that like it's really important to do breath work as it allows us to deal with that issue and others deal with that issue and others and just some that day, after being silent for a day and a half, and it's just all these people coming up to him and he's like almost like a god to them, right, and I'm like oh, wow, like this, and like people crying and everyone like crowding around him and I was just like struck with like the inverse of ego, right like insignificance. I was embarrassed at how little my life has come to in a way, even though I got this business and I want to help the trades like become elevated and all that, all the junk. I always say, right like I.

Tim Brown: 15:35

I just felt very insignificant and I went out in the woods and I fucking cried like I got punched in the gut as hard as you could. I remember sitting on this log and covered in moss and I'm just like weeping and somebody passes by, another person set the meditation or whatever I like hide in my face and I'm just ugly crying, right, and I don't think I had an epiphany in that moment. I think I just got the shit kicked out of me. But hey, you gotta think bigger. There's people out here changing the world for real with simple things like mindset shifts and meditation and as well. You got to let go, cause I was in the middle of three days no phone, by the way, no phone. No like complete silence, no talking. I couldn't say anything and that that letting go it. Basically it was like obvious to me. I had to let go of all these thoughts because they were crushing me.

Corey Berrier: 16:37

I just had to let go, which is almost impossible for people like us.

Tim Brown: 16:41

Yeah, two times.

Tim Brown: 16:42

Yeah, and I even remember trying to come up with to-dos. It's so crazy when you get in this mad rush of living, I'm like, what are the to-dos? Okay, I'm going to do no phone every night with my family. Like am I coming up with all my to-dos to lock this experience in man? And I think really, though, like what I think about, like with my reflection on it, is just like letting go, and letting like life's going to. It's kind of like life's gonna happen to you no matter what, yeah, and you flailing is not gonna fix that. And this last year it's just been like, even after this and that other trip where I like had learned scuba diving and not freaking out when I saw a shark in my face was like don't struggle, don't struggle did you do that with somebody?

Corey Berrier: 17:38

yeah, I did that with eric ober. I knew it. I knew it.

Tim Brown: 17:40

That's exactly why I asked?

Tim Brown: 17:41

because he's the only dude, I can imagine that you could have done this with yeah, and I had two other people, ty Cobb Backer from TC Backer Construction and Joe Hoffman from Hoffman Weber, and both they have a $50 million plus empire. They're both really smart and so in between I literally went because those two guys were going and I'm sitting there taking notes on all the things that they have to say because I look up to them deeply, so that's why I take the hour off every day. Now that was TC Ty Backer's take. And then Joe Hoffman told me to do this workshop with my wife about what is our enough number dollar amount, get it very clear. No for sure. And when I did that math, I like what we need to live. We actually get more than what our enough is, and I don't even need to make any more money at all to be happy, like.

Tim Brown: 18:37

Basically, he's like we're obsessed with more right and it's this entrepreneur's curse, but anyways, that was a whole another scenario, but the whole thing, the takeaway for me, was like stop struggling. And that's a funny way to say it, because it's like when somebody throws out something to save you, right, they throw out a life rafter, a life preserver, one of those circle things you just have to grab on and don't you struggle in the water and you drown, both of you, I don't know, for some reason. That just came to me this last year. Don't struggle and I feel like I'm. It's kind of a weird thing to say 15 years sober. I'm not currently going to church or anything like that, but I do think there's a certain amount of I am being saved For real being saved, because all the momentum that we've created now other people are helping me more than I'm helping myself and that's the role maybe yeah, now it's team.

Tim Brown: 19:42

right, there's an actual team on my side helping me and I don't just gotta stop self-sabotaging, which I think that the hardest part when you're in recovery is to not hurt yourself in other ways. People get addicted to that pattern of self-sabotage and then ups and downs. Man, I've just been talking a lot, I apologize.

Corey Berrier: 20:08

No, you're good. I say all the things we might as well.

Tim Brown: 20:12

I would like to just really quick tell everybody about what you do, and then we'll dive right back into this sure, yeah, google marketing for home service contractors, seo, ppc websites, google ads and google maps and lsa anything to do with Google and getting leads and we work with a lot of roofing contractors. We have 100 plus and now we have around 20 HVAC contractors. So I think the first time we did this podcast, I may be at three. We've since gotten a lot of new HVAC contractors and I think plumbing is next and I think we have five plumbers. But in the next couple of years we'll be pushing harder into that.

Tim Brown: 21:13

But really just trying to get the whole team up on these things and know about the industry, because that's certainly where an agency starts to be a lot better is when they know about the industry and when everyone is not, they're not trying to get the basics every single time they talk to you, they're trying to get all right. Yeah, you've seen that before. How are you different? Knowing what's not special in the industry and knowing what is, and like trying to layer, push into what's special for people. I think that's a huge piece of what we do and it's a 30 person team here in minneapolis and in-house everything and it's a little different than some places on the small side and then, compared to bigger agencies, we're just higher employee-to-customer ratio. We usually have less customers per employee than a lot of companies, so we're a little higher, more like higher-touch boutique style.

Corey Berrier: 22:09

How do you overcome the? If you ask in any of these groups who's the best marketer, it's just a shit show.

Tim Brown: 22:17

Yeah, interesting, because one, you still need marketing and most people aren't going to build it in house. So sometimes it's just yeah, I know you hate us, but you need us, you need us. I wish it was a little bit more feel good than that. You need us, you need us. I wish it was a little bit more feel good than that. I don't overcome it.

Tim Brown: 22:35

I think most of the people that come to us like, by the time they come to us, because we don't like cold outreach people or anything like that. People come to us and they say, hey, I want what you have and we built our attraction marketing right out and that's what we help people Thank you so much. And it's more fun than like knocking down other people's doors because you don't position yourself as the prize as much. In that case and I believe that's the ideal way to do it is get people to come to you and then position yourselves as the prize and sure, yeah, I'll help you. So when people come in, I think a lot of them come to us already knowing like they can already feel and sense the difference than the lower end Everyone's in their DMs or the agencies that have no specialty or have no niche, but there's still always something there and I think there's always like a mistrust, and I think there's always a mistrust. I know you guys, as contractors, have to experience the mistrust from homeowners that are scared that you're going to take their money and not do. They say that they're going to do that, believe in the golden rule that treat other people like they should be treated, that care about getting them the right thing for their situation, and then those people generally believe that's what we're doing, which is what we're trying to do. Right, it was just we're trying to live, trying to do the stuff that they actually need not sell them shit they don't need or trying to help them grow their businesses. So it's just.

Tim Brown: 24:18

I think it's just more and more we're trying to get around people that act like that and thus trust people like that. You know, I mean I'm not very hard to. If you try to sell me something, I'm not that hard to. I trust people like I trust people a lot that are trying to sell me stuff, because I think that makes a better sales force. I think I'm not always second guessing. Everyone, yes, does that every once in a while. Screw me over. Does that every once in a while, leave me with some piece of exercise equipment that doesn't do what it says it's going to do, or whatever, sure, yeah? Or a cologne that smells like dog shit on a boot. Yeah, every once in a while, I click an Instagram ad and get some stuff. That wasn't great, but I think, overall, I try to live and try to sell things in a way that's accurately accurate and try to work with companies that do that too.

Tim Brown: 25:13

I know you guys, in the H-Jack world there's a little bit more of hey, we're selling them options, and let's not worry so much about whether I know that. There's all kinds of different people, but I think I I don't know, talk to me. Let's go into that for a second, because you've seen the hvac world and the roofing world. Do you ever think like though? I know the roofing world has its own problems with, like, manual damage and some other weird things that sometimes happen but do you think that the hvac world is a little sneakier sometimes?

Corey Berrier: 25:53

yeah, so I think, yeah, I can clarify that you've got. You got roofers that'll tear your house up. If so, I'll say some roofers that will rip shingles off or whatever, and that's unethical.

Corey Berrier: 26:05

And then you've got some hvac guys that will say sell them everything. And maybe what their intention is, you know sell them, give them options to do nothing, fix the problem or sell them a new system. But then I think sometimes that's misinterpreted and sometimes intentionally from the owner. Intentionally he wants you to sell everything. The owner Intentionally he wants you to sell everything regardless. And then sometimes I think you've got people that will, because they're getting paid to do this.

Corey Berrier: 26:45

Now I'm not shitting on performance pay, all right, let's be clear. I think that's vitally important to the success of a business when I say performance pay, meaning you get a SPF or a percentage of what you sell, but I also think that percentage should be equal. I may get killed for saying this, but I don't think it should be 12 or 15% on a repair and 2% on a new system, because then you're leveraging more repairs than you are, unless that's the business model, right. So it's not okay to repair a $6,000 repair when in a month or two months or six months there's going to be another $2,000 repair and you're going to capitalize on that also, yeah. And so that's where the sneakiness could come in, with either the technician selling, technician, comfort advisor, and or could be the owner passing that down.

Tim Brown: 27:43

I've seen all of those things have you been out on like job sites or what is your level of depth on the roofing industry and its vibes?

Corey Berrier: 27:56

ask me the question and, yeah, I'll see if I can have you seen any?

Tim Brown: 28:00

do you are you aware of the level of occasional lack of integrity in the roofing industry and are you? I'm wondering if you could compare the levels for me, if you know, if you have that information, but I don't.

Corey Berrier: 28:15

Probably worse in the roofing industry, and I'll only say that because most roofers are not actually roofers, they're glorified salespeople. Nothing wrong with that. And I realized this when I went up to Hunter Ballou's Revolt Roofcon oh yeah, revolt. And I'm sitting around with 50 other roofers and they're all just salespeople. They're not hanging shingles, they're not climbing on the house, which is my idea of a roofer. Now, some people do, but very seldom do you hear of the roofer being the actual guy getting on the house and he may be looking at the shingles but he's not installing anything. He's got a team that does that. He's just selling the roof, whereas HVAC, if you've got selling technicians, they can fix it or they can sell it, which is usually a unicorn, not super common, not that they can do both well. So I think that the roofing industry has it's a little bit more renegade no, yeah, I think, and it's also.

Tim Brown: 29:25

I always think about indoor, outdoor, like indoor cats versus outdoor. But the thing is like hvac, I think I thought it. I'm just gonna be real, real right now. Somebody can hate me if they want, but I think I thought it. I'm just gonna be real, real right now. Somebody can hate me if they want, but I think I thought it was a little bit more white, glove, soft, but then when I'm out in the field I can feel like it is often crunchy, sometimes soft, but a lot of times like it's the same kind of people, it's just there's a certain pretense that gets dropped when you can do the work. You know what I mean. Like when you, because, because people that real techs, feels like real techs that can get this shit done, like sometimes they seem a little crunchier in certain ways because they can, they don't, they're not scared for their job. I what are you gonna fire me? I'm the one guy that knows how to do this, to work on these systems for real. You know what I mean.

Tim Brown: 30:15

There's a little bit more of that which would be reminiscent of the actual shingle installers versus the salespeople, kind of like you're saying, and so there's a down-to-earth, salt-to-the-earth vibe that sometimes we don't see, because a lot of the actual shingle, the shingle installers, are mexican and they're not. We're not always having when I go out on the job I don't know spanish so I'm not always having those conversations with them. I do know some shingle, like I'm friends with shingle installers. They just happen to be a little far fewer and farther between for the industry. That, as far as the white dudes basically and I know, like I know the ones that do have a little bit more of that vibe too, which is the more like hey, what are you gonna do?

Corey Berrier: 31:05

I can actually do the work, so try messing with me and I'm gonna, and I'm actually going to do the work. I'm actually going to carry 600 pounds on my shoulders up the ladder. You can't do that because, yeah, these guys, those guys that install, are like it's my, it's mind-blowing to me how they're just like a machine, like I don't understand how they work so hard in the work, though that's a little different.

Tim Brown: 31:32

Like with it sorry, I'm just like like dissecting the industry a little bit but like in hvac, the level of technical information, like knowledge required, is a lot higher. It feels, not to say there's not valleys and intricacies on roofs, but they're just not as technical. So it's a different, a little bit different of a industry. In that way, I would say I was surprised a little bit by some of the aggressive sales tactics in hvac, and I'm not even anti, that's the point. It sounds like I might saying that out of the gate. It might sound like I'm anti. One, I'm taking notes. I'm also learning this shit, thank you. And then, two, there is places where it's too much right. There's like spots in the hvac industry that are a little you guys are better at it but there's also places where it's a little like maybe you're going too far with some of that, from what I can tell.

Corey Berrier: 32:27

Yeah, and that's just like my first couple years impression here yeah, I agree, and some of the people I'm certainly not going to drop names and they're not all bad and they're not all good, but there's a lot of sales trainers out there that they teach you to pretty much not take no for an answer and I don't really agree with that. I think that there's. You can push a customer. Let me just say, push might be aggressive.

Corey Berrier: 33:16

You can leverage the knowledge to get a customer to make a decision, but you should do that in a very tactful way and really, if you've built rapport up until that point, you really shouldn't have to push that individual into making a decision because ultimately, the box is the box. They're all the same, right, they're all the same, the installation's important, but they're buying the person in the home. They're buying that individual and most of the time, people the price doesn't matter as much if they really like you as an individual. Yeah, and some companies don't know how to overcome that and a lot of that is they've got their people, their technicians are scheduled so tightly that they don't have the time to build that relationship. And I get it Summertime is when you make all your money. But you're also doing your technicians and the customer a disservice because you're not allowing them time to build that relationship, whereas roofers do have more of that time, unless they're in a storm, and that's a bit different scenario.

Tim Brown: 34:19

Yeah, once again, though they're not always doing the work so they have all that extra time when you say roofer, yeah, they have all that extra time because they can hang out with them Things I felt like I learned from this last few years hanging with these badass HVAC sales coaches that are pretty crazy. Really good is the options thing, making sure people have options, maybe even the presentation of those options, and what is your take from highest to lowest, what is what order do you recommend giving options? The highest, start at the highest.

Corey Berrier: 34:57

Is that what?

Tim Brown: 34:57

you're. Is that what you mean? Yeah, Start at the highest. Is that what you're is?

Corey Berrier: 34:59

that what you mean? Yeah, start at the highest. Yeah, well, because there there's a, there's some people that are gonna want the very highest thing. It's if you go buy a vehicle at whatever dealership, you may want every option on the vehicle just because you want to have the vehicle with all the options, but if you don't have that option to buy that vehicle, you can't buy it. Most people are going to land in the middle, some are going to land at the bottom, but a lot of times, if you do it the right way, 90% of them are going to land in that middle option because they don't want the shittiest system and they don't want the Cadillac system. So where do they land is in the middle.

Tim Brown: 35:40

Something I didn't experience with roofing sales coaches but I enjoyed with HVAC is around even things like magic moments, where you're calling the customer by their name. By the way, the more you use the name, the higher the sales likelihood goes up. I did not know that. Rilla taught me that. The magic moments thing, Joe Corsera's thing, where it's like hey, can I tell you something? Hey, Corey, can I tell you something? And then they say yes and you get permission, and then the idea of I think it's really good what you're doing for your home, and I believe that this is the exact right thing, and I think that getting this taken care of before it turned into a giant problem was wise of you as a father or as a mother or whatever.

Tim Brown: 36:23

They didn't have that. They didn't know about all this, they didn't know about using humanity, but I think it's also treating people like humans. You know what I mean. I think it's also treating people like humans. You know what I mean. I think it's smart and there's a couple other things like that where it was like I just felt like when I came into HVAC, the level of sales coaching was just up from roofing by a lot. So I hope that roofers learn a lot from as some of these coaches and consultants come over from the HVAC world into roofing, cross-pollinating the professionalism and a little bit more of the soft skills of the sales process. I think roofing has been spoiled by insurance and storm work to the point where they don't necessarily even need to have a high touch sales mindset. They're literally just prescribing the fix to a storm damage problem and I think that these softer, high touch vibe selling I don't know how to say it.

Corey Berrier: 37:31

All right, so let's get back for a second to you. We said it's really great you're doing. Second to what you said it's really great that you're doing, can I ask you a question? Is it really great? It's really great You're doing this for your family or little Johnny, or whatever? Yeah, I think that's fine, as long as you truly mean that statement. Yeah, and I think I believe that it will come across subconsciously. I'll pick up on if you're just telling me it's not authentic Absolutely, consciously. I'll pick up on if you're just telling me it's not authentic Absolutely, and I think that's where that part gets lost in translation, because people that don't really mean it are saying it and it's not working.

Tim Brown: 38:05

Yeah, and it's funny though, because that and things like it, when we compliment somebody, I think no matter what, even if you knew it was a tactic, it's hard for somebody to hate that. No, I'm not even saying it's absolutely right or anything, but I do think that when you say positive stuff to the homeowner, when you make it a positive feeling experience that like touches on, like human connection. I think that we could stand for more of that, even if you at the risk of us disagreeing and I don't think there's anything wrong with it if we disagree but I think that it's better almost every single time, even if you're contriving it a bit at the beginning, if you can learn. Like I said, I hope it's okay if we disagree on this, but I think there's an element of if you can, on purpose, put more of those types of things into the sales process, that you can create brain chemicals for that homeowner and almost even if they know what you're trying to do and I think I, when I find myself in a situation because I use these things in sales now and get on a phone call with me and we'll test them out sometime audience, but I truly do make sure I try to fully be there and present and use presence to really truly mean it.

Tim Brown: 39:43

I don't say it like it's a line.

Tim Brown: 39:45

I agree that you have to have full emotion and feeling and somebody could do one line in the home of the exact same line, but with the wrong inflection and with no spirit of like empathy and like actual presence, and that line will just flop, flop and then on the other side, if you did that same line, same exact words, but like with pacing, and you care about the person and even though, yes, you've said this line before, I actually am really proud of you, like that you're getting this taken care of before it turns into a bigger mess and you have conviction when you say it, then it could definitely hit much harder.

Tim Brown: 40:32

So I think that, like, those things still can be developed, there can be a prescription for those things which is like pacing, body language, facial expressions and emotion and presence. And you can I'm not, naturally that I can figure out how to do that with the person I'm selling to and I actually can try to be more present. And I think I'm not a master HVAC salesperson by any means, I'm just more. I like that there's a little bit more intention in this industry around things like that. That's all. That's what.

Corey Berrier: 41:07

I like about it Well, and I think you can develop those empathetic, emotional mad. I think you can develop the talk track and the emotion, even if you don't mean it at first, if you're trying, if you're trying to get to that point, I do believe you can rewire to the point where, if you see it work or you test it and it works, I think you can develop into the person that really means that as well.

Tim Brown: 41:37

Yeah, yeah and hey, this process of learning sales is always so back and forth on that thing where it's like what's authentic? And then it's this works. And then you're like I want to make sure that this is authentic because I don't want to go off in a path that ends with me being a piece of shit and then it's I do know that like ends with me being a piece of shit, and then it's I do know that this works. I know that certain things work and I'm trying not to use them. You know, it's like like at this point in my life I'm sure, oh, I like the camera went way over there, over here. Yeah, where'd it go? My robot got stuck over there. Yeah, where'd it go? My robot got stuck over there.

Tim Brown: 42:20

There's an element of I want to be like I feel powerful, like I'm sure you feel this way too. Like with sales, like you things that work and not all those things are we learn some forbidden knowledge along the way. When you study sales, you're like I've got a bunch of sales books behind me. I got the 10X rule, the challenger, sale pitch, anything. I've got some of my favorite books. You learn some things along the way that could be used for ill or ill-gotten gain or whatever. And it's such a weird thing because I do feel very persuasive and I do know how to help people do what I want them to do. And I'm not saying that I'm like the best salesperson ever, but that is a weird part about being a salesperson.

Corey Berrier: 43:04

Yeah, but you're doing it because you know the outcome is going to be beneficial for them. Yes, you're not doing it because you're trying to strip them of $30,000 and they're going to get nothing.

Tim Brown: 43:17

Yes, and that is the trick. Right, it has to be. One of my other favorite books Think or Grow. Rich says essentially, it's hard to get wealthy unless you have the mindset that every exchange should be good for both parties. Every exchange should be good for both parties. You have to make that promise to yourself that you're only going to do things because otherwise you'll self-sabotage yourself. Most people with a conscience will end up not being as good as they could have been because they feel like they maybe don't deserve it. With some exceptions, there's actual people that are psychopathic out there that can just do things for their own gain with no other consideration. But most of us need that deeper part of us on board with success. Most of us need it to be real and for us to make sure we're actually helping people. Otherwise you get demotivated.

Corey Berrier: 44:14

Yeah, I agree with you. So I think so that self-sabotage portion where I'm going to do this thing for you and, yeah, I'm not going to ask for what I really want, because maybe I don't deserve it when do you think that comes from?

Tim Brown: 44:33

I like that too, and I think it just I'll come back to that in one second I just want to take 20 seconds and say I think that this is really important when selling or growing a business too, because if you have two thoughts you have I want to sell a lot, but I also don't know if we can handle it, the amount of work then you're going to always be subtly accidentally selling against yourself, even if you don't know to the people that you're selling to, and so you have to get that really clear. Can we handle more work? Yes, and I want more work and I want a lot of it. Right, like we have to get that very clear in our subconscious so it's not pushing against us. And I think where that relates just more generally to life is like I need to get it clear that I'm a good person and that I deserve winning. I need to clarify at my deepest level that I love myself, because I don't want to be the kind of guy that's like subtly because people do that all the time right, you'll talk to even somebody with a big ego and you can tell that they don't really like themselves deep down, kind of thing. And I think that there's.

Tim Brown: 45:38

If you don't get that clear and love yourself, you're going to accidentally push other people to not love you too. And that doesn't mean just, oh, I get myself a really nice car and I do first class lifestyle things. It's no. How do you talk to yourself when no one else is around? Are you like I'm a piece of shit? Or do you say I really appreciate that you're trying, like? I think, like something I've been working on and it relates to all that stuff we talked at the beginning around letting go and creating a life that has a little bit of room to live, not just work, is how would I treat a friend If I was a friend? How would I treat him if I was a friend? How would I treat him?

Tim Brown: 46:38

and I think that question helps me clarify all that, so I don't self-sabotage as much and a lot of it has to do with rest and a lot of it has to do with finding ways to do stuff I like every single week, and sometimes that takes like negotiating a little bit with my wife or telling her why it's important. Hey, I need to go work out in the mornings because I feel a lot better when I do and I think it's the right thing for both of us if I'm feeling good and which takes a second, but then it's not as hard as you think. Once they get why it's good for you. And yeah, I bet you a lot of people when I first started taking Thursdays out for like what the fuck? But now they know because I'm more calm and I'm more centered when I'm at work.

Corey Berrier: 47:22

I think that's just knowing. I think that self-discovery, knowing yourself or discovering what's beneficial for you, and it doesn't mean it's not the same for everybody. In fact, most people it's probably very different. So where do you think the self-sabotage or the I'm not good enough comes from? Because I think a lot of people in recovery certainly start that way, because addiction starts with some sort of pain and it ends with some sort of pain, meaning you start. The addiction starts whether it's food, whether it's whether it's drugs or alcohol. You're doing it to cover up something and then you it gets away from you and now the pain is that you've got to do this thing that's destroying your life until you decide to put it down.

Tim Brown: 48:14

Yeah, absolutely, and I think when I was early in my 20s and stuff like that, I think I related it back to my parents and maybe even some religious trauma, because I grew up in the church and they had a lot of things that they're always making you think you were wrong about Just even basic sexual urges as a teenager. All that stuff that makes you think, oh, I might be a bad guy. However, I sense I don't really have a lot of resentments against those types of systems or people at this point. I think we're all doing our absolute best and I think, no matter what, there's some suffering, and I think part of that is ego and the inverse of ego, self-hatred that there's no matter what culture you grow up in in if I grew up in a super eastern culture or, my case, western religion or whatever, so I don't know. I just think that those things happen to the best of us, so to speak, and I've taken as much responsibility for it as I possibly could.

Tim Brown: 49:32

Where did I? Not in a self-flagellating way, but in like a what? How could I take responsibility? What did I do that could have led to this? Because that's the only way I'm going to get control, or that's the only way that I'm going to get like some positive next step to help with it. And so, reflecting back on what caused that root thing before alcohol because it was absolutely I was a depressed teenager and all that and alcohol and weed helped to be honest with you.

Tim Brown: 50:05

So, rather than ruminating on what because there's so many ways to have resentments, so many things Angry father, weird pastors, very weird pastors and teachers that didn't give a fuck the military-industrial complex they really did make school about compliance because of there was a period that they literally I don't know if you know this, but there was like they actually changed school to get more compliance because they didn't need critical thinkers anymore, they needed people to work in factories.

Tim Brown: 50:46

So there was literally a push to change the whole curriculum and we wonder why it didn't feel great. It was literally just about compliance. So there's so many things that could be, but I just look at it now and I think, being cognizant of that for my kids, trying to be real about the limitations of current educational system and whatnot, but for me it's like fitness, meditation, taking as much responsibility as I possibly can, nutrition, so that I don't do it again, but other than that, I don't think. I do my best not to sit there and constantly analyze the roots. I'm in therapy and stuff too. I do all the things but I try not to sit there and resent the pieces of what might have been the first couple inclinations towards substances. Those things have long since passed the window of opportunity to fix, and so I just focus on now what I can like work on.

Corey Berrier: 52:01

Yeah, have you ever heard of a program called ACA?

Tim Brown: 52:07

I think so what is it?

Corey Berrier: 52:09

Adult Children of Alcoholics and Functional. So here's what's interesting about this. So I'm working through some of these things right now and what I've found is like when, if you don't think that you're good enough for this thing, then there's a level of approval seeking that you're looking for or that I would be looking for, and that stems from not getting that approval as a child. That doesn't mean you go blame your parents for this thing. That's not the idea. The idea is that you have the knowledge now to do different. And it's really fascinating because I, I, I told the story for years. I had a great childhood because that was just the story I told myself and looking back and now digging into this, like it really wasn't a great childhood, it just wasn't like for a lot of reasons Like.

Corey Berrier: 53:14

I didn't go through any molestation or anything like that, or I didn't get beat where. It's just what you think. A lot of people think of what I thought of as a bad childhood, right? No, it's like the drunk under the bridge, right? Everybody that's an alcoholic is a drunk under a bridge.

Tim Brown: 53:29

That's just not true yeah, no, I think that's good. It's. Yes, my dad was angry and we had issues with that when I was growing up. The one funny thing that happened recently with my pops is that a thing with him. My mom passed away this past year and he's gone through his own weird transformation.

Tim Brown: 53:48

I swear to God, he was wearing like Tom Ford cologne or something like what is this? My dad used to only wear brute, but anyways, I was just. I was trying to mirror, to mirror. You know how in sales we mirror things as I, so I like took him by the shoulders. I looked him directly in the face, I shook him and I said I am so proud of you and he. I told him to do it back and he did it. But, like, I don't care if it's inauthentic, I needed that. I needed my dad to say that to my face. It's so funny. Yeah, we, we had a hard time getting that approval in any way shape or form in my family growing up. So I know exactly what you're talking about and, yes, you could look at it and if I scrutinized it, I could say that was not a great childhood, but I also. It's like when you become a parent, are you a parent?

Tim Brown: 54:41

I raised a daughter for 10 years, but she wasn't mine yeah but you know how it's, it's hard to you judge, you're judgy and tell that's you and that's. Oh, I see why they like let them be on their tablet or something in public. So I just try not to be too now as a parent. I'm like try not to be too now as a parent. I'm like, try not to be too judgy, although I don't yell, and I don't want to ever yell in front of my kid, cause that was tough yeah.

Corey Berrier: 55:08

Yeah, because it's really like shame. Like you felt shame because you were being yelled at for whatever the thing was, cause you didn't know any different. We interpret things the way we interpret things and, as a kid, you don't have very much context as to why these things are happening. You just have to take your own, your own perception of why they're happening, which is, I'm, bad.

Tim Brown: 55:33

that's why it's happening yeah, no, I agree 100. It's good to look at that.

Corey Berrier: 55:38

Everyone's small yeah, while, yeah, it's deep, we go through some of this in, I'll just say, in six and seven, character defects. We look at how those show up in our lives and they continue to show up. It's not like we get rid of them, but at least you're aware once you get to that point in the steps. Yeah, I agree, aware once you get to that point in the steps. Yeah, I agree. So how much do you? How much time do you spend with, do you? I don't know, you have sponsees.

Tim Brown: 56:13

I guess I can say yeah I have one sponsee right now and I kind of always am on the lookout. If I can help somebody, I try to make like I'll do a couple meetings with somebody and just make sure that I could help them. I think sometimes if somebody is committed to using certain other things besides alcohol, I'll be like I might not be your guy Because I was actually a stoner too. So I was a stoner and I needed to be done with that. So that's why I'm probably not going to be the best sponsor for somebody who's like california sober or whatever. But I, yeah, I sponsor somebody right now.

Tim Brown: 56:49

I don't know, I've always been the best sponsor. I don't have the greatest track record of success with my sponsor, if I'm really honest, but I've got a guy who's going, who's like almost all the way through the steps right now, and I'm really grateful because it makes me feel like less of a bad sponsor. Yeah, it's really good, usually grab food with them before the meeting and stuff like that. I go to a meeting every week, usually Got one in Minneapolis and one in Austin. I'm usually a once-a-week guy. When I was first in recovery I would go five times a week sometimes.

Corey Berrier: 57:23

So yeah, the community side of it, I think for me. I usually go to three a week in person. Occasionally I'll do an extra one, virtually, it's just not quite the same and then I do host I shouldn't say host. I provide the Zoom link, I should say for people specifically, just like Eric Obramp does for roofers in recovery. I do the same thing on Saturdays for people in HVAC and it's starting to pick up some steam, which is really interesting, because going to a regular meeting everybody's the same, but when you're in an industry-specific meeting there's a level of openness that happens there. That's very different. Does that make sense?

Tim Brown: 58:15

Yeah, no, I agree yeah.

Corey Berrier: 58:17

It's really interesting. Yeah, it's really interesting.

Tim Brown: 58:20

Because you have people with your context on your business and like, hey, we're going through this. Oh, hey, it's tough when I'm on call I'm guessing I haven't been to the HVAC one. But knowing they are going through some of the same situations and work stressors and still staying sober, I'm guessing, is very encouraging.

Corey Berrier: 58:40

Yeah, yeah, it is, and it is interesting you bring up the California sober thing. So I started my time over a couple of years ago. Because of that, I haven't drank in, so mine's August the 12th 2009. I haven't drank since August 12th 2009. But for about six or seven years in that latter part, I did smoke weed and I had to start over. I had to start my time over, which was humiliating, obviously, and very humbling, but if I hadn't have done that, I wouldn't be able to one, I wouldn't have made the progress that I've made, because I would have still been stuck in the denial that I didn't need to start over. And I'm not saying everybody needs to start over, but it's really afforded me an opportunity to talk to people that are California sober and share my experience with putting that down and becoming more sober, putting that down and becoming more sober.

Tim Brown: 59:44

I think one of the reasons I don't do it like I'm scared to sponsor somebody that's like really into that or doesn't want to let that go, is I just I'm scared for myself. I don't want their mindset around that to confuse me, and I do think there's a certain amount of you gotta take care of yourself first, right? We can't save everyone. Sometimes it's just not the right person to do it for you. I am trying to stay sober. I'm trying to stay all the way sober. And God, I don't know, I'm not. It's crazy. Where I was at a meeting last night and this guy was, I didn't realize I was telling my story about being 15 years tomorrow, yesterday, and then the guy gets to him and he goes.

Tim Brown: 1:00:23

I'm back after being sober for 16 years and going out on my own and I was like, oh shit, we don't have guarantees, right? So it's scary. I just want to try to be safe. I want to guard my mind against me thinking I can because I'm, I really could and I can convince myself that I'm. Oh, you know, weed's legal now in minnesota or whatever. Yeah, you, yeah for sure. But I'm not saying I'm like that's the right answer. I'm saying that's for me, that's my answer, that's right now. That's where I'm at.

Corey Berrier: 1:00:57

Yeah, I agree with you. Spiritually. It disconnected me personally, yeah, and so that's where my sobriety took a turn. Is because I then relied on weed, just like I would anything else opposed to God.

Tim Brown: 1:01:15

Yeah, it's already hard to remember God. Imagine being stoned Right. I forgot stoned Right. I forgot to pray. I forgot to pray this morning. Imagine if I wake and make that I wouldn't be praying for five days. I don't know. It's true, yeah.

Corey Berrier: 1:01:31

Yeah, and it's slowly just strip everything away, and it's so subtle. It's not like you went and got drunk and wrecked your car Cause then that's so subtle. It's not like you went and got drunk and wrecked your car, because then it's really clear that you've made a mistake With weed. It's just a slow. You just don't even realize it's happening.

Tim Brown: 1:01:48

Yeah.

Corey Berrier: 1:01:50

Yeah, at least that was what happened with me. So I know that we're getting close on time. But what would you say if somebody's listening that maybe they are struggling with drugs or alcohol? What would you say has been your biggest benefit of being in recovery? Because there's a difference in being sober and being in recovery. You can just not drink and be fucking miserable, or you can be in recovery and be happy yeah, I think.

Tim Brown: 1:02:25

Obviously it happens different for every single person, but for me, having more alignment between what I say I want to do and what I do, having more clarity around this is real. What I'm doing right now is real. Everything is real, even if it's hard sometimes, and the ability to take all the things that were really difficult in my drinking and drugging and even past that right. Like all the other things I've gone through and learn how to learn from every single one of them. It gets very strong. Like all the other things I've gone through and learn how to learn from every single one of them, it gets very strong.

Tim Brown: 1:03:03

Like a lot of things are very strong for me in my life because of the ability to take adversity and turn it into something more hopeful, and also for me to feel better from going through those things and then taking the lessons, actually taking the lessons and to use those lessons. So it just trained into me an idea about life that I can get better through adversity and it's trained into me out of desperation that I have to be useful to other people and I have to continue to all the time be looking for ways to be useful to other people, and it's a very positive thing. It's a very clean thing, it's a very wholesome thing that I'm always trying to do, and those things make life a lot more meaningful, and I believe that meaningful, a meaningful life is really more enjoyable to live.

Corey Berrier: 1:03:59

Also, I agree with everything you said, but also I think and I bet you'll agree with this we have a framework that allows us to recognize. I'll give you a great example. Let's just pretend that you say something shitty to your wife and you know it's shitty after you say it. The first thing likely you do is you make amends to her and you correct it.

Tim Brown: 1:04:30

If I had to guess, yeah, I'm much more quick to actually own up to my issues out of necessity, because I can't, I don't want to live with the like pain of the anxiety of not doing something, versus back in the day you could kind of like etch a sketch that with a little whiskey or weed. So now I've got a lot more like skin in the game. I'm not. I'm risking my day to not apologize.

Corey Berrier: 1:05:05

Yeah, that's right, and I think I think that's been one of the things that's been really helpful for me is to be able to recognize that when I am wrong to, to make that amends, and then am wrong to to make that amends. And then also, I think one of the other benefits too is genuinely giving without anything in return, because it's not like we get paid as a sponsor. You don't get paid to do that, it's freely. You're giving your time for free and there's no other way. In my opinion, it's hard to feed without having that framework and understanding the natural benefits that come from giving that time freely. I don't know how else you would figure out that process. Does that make sense?

Tim Brown: 1:05:57

Yeah, no, exactly. I think it's like recovery and 12 steps they put encourage you to do this right, like you're supposed to go to, you're supposed to help people and you're supposed to like actually give completely. And I even buy my guy dinner a lot. Sometimes we switch off. I probably buy it more often I don't and it's just a reminder. Constantly we're on borrowed time, you owe it forward. Like it's not even pay it forward, it's like you owe it forward or you might lose it. Use it or lose.

Tim Brown: 1:06:27

It is really the best way to think about like recovery and it's a consistent reminder and you also do end up getting. It's a very it's a positive reward loop cycle because you immediately get a reminder of oh, that's what I'm in, I remember that about early sobriety and I appreciate that and like they have so much more of a recent context on what it's like to actually be active drinking and using. So it's like that recent context helps you like remember, yeah, and it keeps you in a spot where you're more likely to stay sober for that day and that's a big deal. And this experience, these meetings and these times with people that are desperate and need, they're an experience that just gets baked into you over time and more and more why it's good for people. I know more and more why it's good for people like me to stay sober. I'm not saying that I will never go out, I'm just saying today I'm very aware and I'm appreciative that this guy last night that was his second meeting after being sober for 16 years and then going out for a year I'm so grateful he came. It was bold for him. It was humbling for him to come back after not having. He didn't go for a long time but that was really helpful for me because I was 15 and he was 16.

Tim Brown: 1:07:56

There's a lot of serendipity like that at meetings, or it's just a pattern. Let's play down of serendipity like that at meetings where, oh, or it's just a pattern. Let's play down this serendipity and this might be a pattern with us alcoholics. We tend to forget.

Corey Berrier: 1:08:09

Yeah, built-in forgetter. Yeah yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, but I'm really really grateful for the program being there and having the steps and being able to give back. I think it's made me a better human being. Oh yeah, for sure. Tim, where can people find you if they'd like to talk to you about recovery or purchase your marketing?

Tim Brown: 1:08:37

Sure, yeah, tim Hook on Facebook is a great way to find me, tim Hook and hookagencycom to check out our marketing services. And thank you for Corey for having me on. I don't think, like I said, it's been a long. Even the ones where I've told my story, I didn't go more into the like solution style stuff. So it's really nice to be on a podcast and get to talk about this and go deep on it. So thank you for letting me do that.

Corey Berrier: 1:09:03

Yeah, you're welcome. I appreciate you doing it, my friend. I'll talk to you soon. Yes, sir, thanks, you got it.