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Successful Life Podcast
The Successful Life Podcast, hosted by Corey Berrier, is a globally recognized show that ranks in the top 2% of podcasts worldwide. It offers expert insights tailored for contractors, focusing on business strategies, sales skills development, and the integration of artificial intelligence (AI) in the industry.
Successful Life Podcast
"Why Can't They Just Stop?" The Complexity of Addiction Explained
In this heartfelt episode, we dive deep into the intricacies of addiction and the transformative power of community. Jennifer Manzo shares her compelling journey, from her upbringing surrounded by addiction to becoming a beacon of hope through her work with the HVAC Chicks Coalition. This diverse platform fosters a network of support for HVAC technicians while uniting individuals under challenging circumstances, making recovery more accessible.
Throughout the conversation, Jennifer highlights not only her personal battles with addiction but also the collective struggles of her loved ones, illustrating the ripple effect that addiction has on families. Her insightful anecdotes reveal the power of vulnerability and the importance of creating secure spaces for individuals to confront their realities. Listeners can expect to learn how community connections lead to healing, affirming that no one has to navigate the challenges of addiction alone.
Join us as we challenge preconceived notions about addiction while emphasizing that recovery is an ongoing journey - one best tackled together. Discover the essential topics of control, the duality of addiction, and the incredible value of a supportive network in mental health and recovery. Don't miss this episode filled with raw honesty and inspiring takeaways. Subscribe now, join our community, and help spread the message of hope and resilience.
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Welcome to the Successful Life Podcast. I'm your host, Corey Barrier, and I am here with Jennifer. I don't know your last name. I can't pronounce your last name, actually.
Speaker 2:It's just Manzo.
Speaker 1:Okay, I was thinking it was started with a V, gloriani.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, not actually my last name, but it is my company name.
Speaker 1:Fair enough. So, Jennifer, how's it going?
Speaker 2:Awesome.
Speaker 1:How's it going with you? Good so, jennifer, how's it going? Awesome? How's it going with you? Good? So I'm pretty excited to jump into this conversation with you. We've interacted for quite some time now and finally just got an opportunity to get on. So I guess, before we get started, just go ahead and tell everybody a little bit about yourself and your group and some of the things that you're doing and your group and some of the things that you're doing.
Speaker 2:Sure, it's a loaded question, but I'm used to answering it, obviously. So I am a business owner from Maine. I own an HVAC company, an engineering firm. I'm also a mechanical engineer I only specialize in HVAC, though and then I own HVHX Coalition. I'm the founder.
Speaker 2:It is basically a free training coalition, but we have added so much more to it. We have a free, 24-7 tech support line that has five technicians on it. We answer 24 hours a day, and we do that for two countries, the US and Canada. And then, on top of that, we have live hangouts, a community meetup every Saturday. We have all kinds of different community tools to give all of the younger techs, or even the older techs who maybe need to get back to the fundamentals or haven't had a community while they've been in the trade.
Speaker 2:Now we have, like this big giant family of over a thousand people where, in the HVHX Coalition Facebook group, we just all love each other, hang out, teach each other, and we have a mentor program. There's nothing we don't have or don't provide. We have a free tool account where we provide free tools to starting out techs. We're going to start a tech start program using the NAVAC gauges. We're going to be giving out veto tool bags and NAVAC gauges and whole hand tool lots for any new up and coming tech. So it's just a lot going on there.
Speaker 1:Jesus, I had no idea. Yeah, it's pretty great, really freaking cool. Yeah, that's very impressive. I had absolutely no idea that you did all that.
Speaker 2:It's definitely a community effort. It's a lot of people all coming together to add new things. We just added a blog, we're adding a book club, so I mean there's a bunch going on in there. I definitely urge anybody listening to this if you're in any trade, really join HVHX Coalition Facebook group. It's a big family. Corey and Jason's new 12-step meetings that they're doing are pretty prominent right now in our group. We have a lot of recovering addicts and alcoholics in our group that now throw themselves into their trade and their craft in order to do better in life, so we're really excited to have somewhere for them to meet as well. So and their craft in order to do better in life.
Speaker 1:So we're really excited to have somewhere for them to meet as well. So you guys are doing a great job with that. Thank you, I'm really excited about it. It was really until we had that first meeting I didn't really. I've been in recovery for a while but never have I been in a room of recovery of all of the same people. They're all in recovery, but like in the same industry, and there was something special about that because it I believe that it allowed I believe it allowed more of a freedom to speak, because everybody in the room was in this trade, which was really cool.
Speaker 2:It's just a deeper level right of connecting with other people. So we go to meetings because those people have been through what we've been through. But to have those people have been through what we've been through and work the same job we do or a job in the same trade is just so much deeper. I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because when you get into especially when you're new in recovery like you're fish out of water, like you feel like you don't belong in the room for various reasons. Either one, you don't think you should be there or two, you just don't fit in A lot of the same stuff that we, a lot of us, have felt all of our lives really, and it's really the furthest thing from that. But I think this gives an opportunity to have conversations with like-minded people. It was really cool. It was really cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I heard it went amazing. There are so many people that are involved in this now that are just rooting you guys all on and just want to be a part of it. So I'm here for it, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that, so let's just segue into a little bit about how addiction has affected you or your life, or what's been your journey with that caffeine relationships, right, there are so many different.
Speaker 2:Hvac is an addiction to me. I don't let things go easy and that's because my family comes from such a trauma bond with addiction of any kind, right. So it started for me at birth. My stepdad was a lobsterman. I lived on Peaks Island here in Maine, right in the middle of Casco Bay and the Atlantic Ocean, isolated, so there's a lot of addiction that goes on there, and it was the 90s.
Speaker 2:My mom is a single mom of five and meets a man and that man happened to be addicted to just about anything he could get his hands on, very abusive. But I think in retrospect, without the addictions that abuse probably would not have happened. He was one of those people that was a Jekyll and Hyde. So looking back on that and he's my brother's father. So looking back on that and trying to find peace with it I've found a lot that the times that he was sober, those were the times where he was his actual self. And sometimes we look at that differently. We look at that opposite. We look at it as when you're under the influence of something and you're not able to control yourself. That's who you really are. But I disagree with that and then, as my mom left him, we moved away. We had the police involved. He went to prison and then we were all teenagers in a new town and my mom started to drink. She had never drank before that in our lives. She was an RN. She worked 16 hour days, raised five kids alone for the most part, and then as my sister.
Speaker 2:So I have three sisters two of them are older than me and I have a younger brother from that side of the family and my two sisters both fell into addiction very early. It started smoking cigarettes, it led into smoking pot, which is what it is completely separate, if you ask me, but it is a mind altering substance. From there it went to peer pressure, right, and it went to healing trauma, or how they saw it was healing their trauma. Really it was just making it worse, of course, but both of them by the time they were 14 and 15, were completely addicted to heroin. So back then it wasn't, I guess, as harmful a substance at the time because it didn't have the other substances that kill people like one try like it does now. So my sisters were able to live in active addiction with heroin for decades and then now they're in their forties. And well, one of my sisters is a year older than me. And then my other sister is in her forties and she my oldest sister is still in active addiction. And then my younger but older sister is 16 months clean and sober, which is absolutely amazing. She, like I said, has been addicted to various substances meth and heroin mostly since we were teenagers. So for her to be 16 months clean and sober is immense.
Speaker 2:Both of them ended up losing their children to the state, and the first one that happened to was my oldest sister and her two children, one of them already, her three children. One of them lived with my mom at the time and he is now an adult lives on his own. But my other two, niece and nephew, had nowhere to go. It was near a foster home. So I took them in. They've been here for 12 years thriving. They're both in trades. They're amazing kids. They are my kids. I love them to death. But that sister just still struggles with addiction. She doesn't live in the same state. So it's been easier with the kids for them to not watch it that descent, but it's been awful for me, of course. But that's my I guess that's my journey of life, but also addiction, has just touched every part of that life. So and I'm also now a board member of HVAC and Recovery nonprofit that works with recovering HVAC techs specifically, so that's pretty great.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. Yeah, so I can't imagine what that was like having to take those two children to, I think, foster care, is that what you said?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was terrifying, of course. All right, so I actually had my oldest daughter at 16, and then I got with Val, my husband. He had a son already. We had just had our first baby together at that time and I was only 19, 20 years old at the time, and they were like here's two more, and they were 8 and 10, and they had lived through serious neglect and abuse. And bringing them in and having that whole other side of raising children that I wasn't used to was a lot, but they got through it together, by the grace of God.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, that's amazing. So I want to go back for a second. You mentioned how, I believe you said, your stepdad yeah, yeah, you're a step bad Was a different person when he was using, opposed to when he wasn't using. It's interesting because that is a lot of times that is the case. However, for me anyway, even when I wasn't drinking and I wasn't in recovery, I was smoking weed. We can get into that, like you know. It's just just a different, like weed's a different it's another side of the coin?
Speaker 1:yeah it is, but it's still for me. I can't be sober if I'm smoking weed absolutely, I agree 100.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just wouldn't call it a harmful substance because I don't have the science that says that so it's interesting because I you don't see like you're not going to get caught robbing a store or you're not going to run over a bunch of kids and you're not good things like that. Yeah, you're right, they don't really happen with weed, but I could tell you, for me it was. I was a dry drunk, yeah, I was smoking weed, but I still had the same shit that was going on, you're losing it for the same reason, it doesn't mean much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I still. I lived for seven years, really, as a dry drunk. And you have the. You act the same way you do, you're just not drinking. It's the same kind of behaviors, it's the same kind of decision making. Yep, and so I, for me, I have to be, I have to be in a program of recovery If I want to live a good life, if I want to think straight, if I want to be normal, if I want to want to wake up every day.
Speaker 2:Otherwise it things go sideways can't and too many will go into and I see this a lot in the HVAC and recovery community is that they'll go into recovery, they will come out sober and at that moment they're detoxed and that's all. They are right, their soul is not recovering yet, it hasn't even started yet, and at that point they're like, okay, well, I don't need this substance physically, so I must be healed, right. And that only leads back to that same path of what you were medicating to begin with. So I love that you said that I think anybody in recovery should have a whole community wrapped around them to keep them there for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's just something special about it, but you've got to want it, you've got to want to be there, you've got to want to do the work and look, it's not easy. It's simple, but it's not easy. The road to recovery yeah, it's tough. You've got to do a lot of deep work and you've got to ask yourself a lot of questions and lots of times. For me anyway, I had to do a lot of shit I didn't really want to do.
Speaker 2:Right. And I think too and I'm basing this off mostly off my sister, because she is such an honest person and she'll be the first one to call me and say I just want to go and get completely effed up right now. So I'm not going to do it, but I wanted to tell you that's how I feel, things like that, and I think it's always. I noticed that it's always at the weirdest times, like she's going through the weirdest thing that is causing that feeling, when she just made it through an entire thunderstorm without feeling that way. So I think there's just no rhyme or reason to it, right? Is the thing that makes it so hard? You just never know when that feeling is going to hit you. You never know when is it?
Speaker 2:And this is what she asked me all the time when do I feel better? And that's such a loaded question for somebody who is 16 months sober. She has not touched any mind altering substance in 16 months, so I'm like what do you mean? Don't you feel better? And she just is so honest and she's like I don't know, I don't feel better.
Speaker 2:I go into my meetings. She goes to meetings twice a day still, and she's like I go to my meetings twice a day and I have these bake sales and try to raise money and I throw myself into recovery and the recovery community, but I don't feel better, I feel worse because I'm thinking about all the things that I did, all the waste of my time losing my children, not being able to talk to them, still working hard to be able to even get to a point where I have visitation and nothing is changing. But she doesn't realize how much it's changing every day, right? So I think that's what makes it hard. I think it's. I think it's the hardest thing you could ever do, right, is to let go of something that you genuinely love, didn't necessarily want to quit, but you had to, right. And so I think it's just like walking, it's like an abusive relationship and walking away from that other person.
Speaker 1:Right, that's exactly what it's like, yeah, so I wonder, I think I would. My question, I think, to her would be and you may know the answer to this has she gone through and she's worked the steps and does she have a sponsor? Because a lot of those things really turn around when you diligently do the, when you diligently work those steps.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think so. Yes, she does. She's still in a halfway house actually after prison. She got sober in prison.
Speaker 2:Her boyfriend at the time murdered two people. One of them was a 16-year-old child here in Maine and she was not a witness to the act, but she was taken to run away with him after the fact. So she was basically. They caught her and said this is your choice. You can get better and we will help you, or you can go right down with him, and she made the right choice, for sure. But then you have that whole aspect of I have to do this, I have to do this. This isn't for me, I'm not choosing to do this, I have to do this. And then, once you get past the certain hump, it's wait a minute, I am doing this for me. I do want to do this.
Speaker 2:So I think the hardest part for her, and what draws her back so hard, is the amount of time that she spent there. And so when you don't graduate high school right, she didn't even make it to high school. She dropped out in eighth grade, completely addicted to heroin, with a 25 year old boyfriend and pregnant. So when you lose every bit of what's supposed to make you who you are, and then all that time is spent with a drug making you who you are. I think that is where now she's, you know, 37 years old and she's going how do I figure out what I'm going to be now? It's just a lot of time spent and it's going to take twice as long to feel better. I think, and that's what I tell her. It's how long did you not feel good for?
Speaker 1:I also think that when we find drugs and alcohol, or relationships or food, it fills a void inside of us that works Like it works, Like it solves the problem, Like I found the damn solution. This is what I've been looking for so long and here it is, and I just want to keep doing it until it stops working.
Speaker 2:Right, and not only until it stops working, but you have to maintain that Right. So, like even me as a smoker I smoke cigarettes actively. I was stuck on a plane for 14 hours the other day, coming back from Orlando, and my entire life was over right, not because I was stuck on a plane for 14 hours, because I couldn't have a cigarette for 14 hours. And I'm going. I have to rethink all of my life choices at this moment. I can't get through this without that crutch that I use every single day, and I actively use that crutch, knowing what it is. So if I can do that as somebody who's never touched drugs or alcohol for the most part of my life, what is it like for someone who has? And I think that's where the disconnect is between the sober community and the un-sober community is the fact that none of us are free of addiction, not even a little bit. So we all have to understand it together, instead of just this community understanding it and us trying to learn about them.
Speaker 1:You know yeah, and I think it. That's a great example 14 hours on the plane. The pain got great enough at hour four or five or six, or whatever. You thought you were going to be able to smoke right, because your brain went okay, like I'm going to be able to smoke in four hours or three hours or whatever it is. And then it got another hour and then the anxiety kicked in and it's like holy shit, like this is ridiculous.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah. It brings out your anger right, your rage. It brings out every negative part of you that you would never even bring to the forefront if it weren't for that. But at the same time, when you finally get that fix, it does the exact opposite.
Speaker 1:So it's just such a hard thing to say no, I don't want to feel better, I'm all set. Yeah Well, for a lot of us it's lack of control. We like to be in control, like as a business owner, you have to be in control of certain things and it's really hard to just let go of control when you feel like you've got to be in it, you've got to do the thing, and control is I mean, people in recovery are riddled with control issues and it could be any kind of control you name it right. But that's what you were feeling on the plane, like you were out of control and somebody was forcing you to sit on that plane. And we don't like to be told what to do.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I am absolutely not one to be told what to do. I'm like the nicest person I know. And I'm looking at my husband. I'm like, if they don't give me my effing bags right now and let me leave here, and I'm in the middle of Washington DC and a two foot snowstorm, where am I going? You're not going anywhere. Just lose control.
Speaker 2:And then on top of you losing control and spiraling like that in your mind, you can't get it back, right. And that's where my sister is the most at risk is that when that's all she can control, all she's ever been able to control. She couldn't control her education, she couldn't control my parents, she couldn't control her own kids being taken from her, but she could control how much and when she used. So now that's the only thing that she had. Now she's like everything is controlling me, right? It feels like an elephant sitting on your chest.
Speaker 2:You can't get that control back, no matter what you do, and I think that's this is why I try to flip it for her all the time and tell her but actually you didn't have control.
Speaker 2:You were being controlled by a substance that you couldn't tell no, right?
Speaker 2:So now you're telling it no, that is the highest amount of control you'll ever have in your lifetime, because I couldn't do it if it were cigarettes. So I know what you're going through to a tiny amount and beyond that, I can't even imagine that pull. So I think she just she's one of those people that just it lasted so long that she just that was her trait, that was who she was to herself. So now she's just learning how to be somebody else and her recovery community is amazing. They're very honest, they're very open and they're on social media and they are going, they, they do mission work, they go out on the streets and they pull people off the streets and they say, just come get help. Like today's the day, and it works for some reason and she's so happy to be involved in it. She just I think that she sometimes thinks too far ahead about what if I ever don't have this community right, but that's why we have to build more and more of them, because it matters.
Speaker 1:Well, lots of times I and I talk about this a lot it's to be to stay present in the moment and not project out for tomorrow or think about what happened yesterday is for me, that that is something I have to really, I have to consciously make an effort to be present. I have to be constant in it because it's like and there's really no other, we don't have anything else than right this second. Like we don't. It doesn't matter what we think is going to happen tomorrow, because, guess what, there's a good chance that that is not going to happen tomorrow you think it's not happening tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, probably that break. That's like like we can say okay, I'm not going to think about tomorrow, but you're still not going to think about right now because you're still going to think about what happened yesterday, right, and I think that's a big trigger for a lot of people in addiction and in recovery well, yeah, and how much time and how many moments do you miss by being in tomorrow or being in yesterday?
Speaker 1:every single fucking one of them.
Speaker 2:Amen, yep, every one of them. All of your presents are gone because they're no longer the present.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:And that's what I do. Tell my sister that too, when she calls and she's having a good day, she'll say, like this is what I did, this is what I'm doing later and I say, but what are you doing right now? And it's that constant reminder. She's the same way as you are. She has to constantly be in the present. She has to be told to be in the present or she just won't be.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's a great example of a bright back to control. Really, how could I have done things differently? Or how can I do them differently? And how can I? We don't recognize it as control. We look at it as well. I'm planning or I'm reflecting. Well, you could do all that, but you just got to understand that, like your plans may not work out the way you want them to, rarely and Jesus Christ, lots of times. That's a blessing in itself, because how many times have you planned to go do something and, oh, that's right, like the airplane that that crashed, like, yes, if you'd have planned to be on that plane, you'd be dead right now?
Speaker 2:yeah so yeah that's what happened to me with the 14-hour flight. I had been canceled because of the snowstorm and I got on an earlier one because I had to get home to my kids that day had to and I knew there was a chance this would happen. Right, it was like two hours earlier. I knew, I knew this would happen, but instead I'm sitting on this flight, haven't had a cigarette in 14 hours and I'm ready to jump out of plane, and it's everyone's fault but my own. I could have just taken the next day's flight and known for a fact it would be a three and a half hour flight, but I wanted to control things Right. So, yeah, it's in everything. It's in every single human being that need in everything.
Speaker 1:It's in every single human being that need. So how do you protect yourself from?
Speaker 2:control in your relationship. So that's. I get asked that a lot, right, cause I am this very open, passionate badass who stole my husband's trade, right. But I think and this is not going to make a lot of people happy relationships aren't about the other person. In fact, the other person matters very little in a relationship. When you have grown up in a world like mine and you've watched relationships deteriorate to a point where people have died from it or been hospitalized from it, right, you start to understand that the only thing that really you can control is yourself. So in my relationship and my relationship with my siblings even right, it's not just romantic relationships, it's all relationships. You've got to have such a handle on your own behavior and you have to take full responsibility.
Speaker 2:And I think, when I came into this trade, for instance, I looked at my husband and I have been together for 18 years, so I was a child when we got together. He had been married before but been divorced, and we were both growing up together, right. So in the very beginning, we looked at it as we were each other's saviors. Right, he's pulling me out of this awful life that I wouldn't have gotten out of any other way, and I was the person to truly love him after such a bad experience and it was God. Was that stupid? Because the stupidity that came from that one thought was just abhorrent. We never should have lived through some of the things we lived through together, because we should have just left each other, but we forged a trauma bond.
Speaker 2:So as we grew, as we took these kids in, we got help for us because we didn't think we needed help. We're not addicted to anything. We're the ones coming in here and taking these kids and giving them a loving home. Boy, were we wrong? Addiction is a family disease. You hear that all the time, but it's more than that. It's a global disease. Every person on this earth is affected by addiction. So for us to be completely naive and say we're not the ones that need help, and then go get help and find out oh my God, how badly did we need help. And then we get that help seemingly for our kids, but we're then taught you don't matter, he doesn't matter, the kids don't matter, each individual is what matters.
Speaker 2:So if I am trying to control every situation and saying I need to get these kids out of here, I need to do this, I need to do that and you're just along for the ride. That takes away his ability to take responsibility for his own needs and actions during that time. Right, he also has to choose to step up. I can't choose that for him. So we had to completely separate our thought processes. We had to each have our own counselors. We had to each go to therapy separately, which was hell for me because it's like I can't control this. I can't control how he's feeling or what he's saying, or what the counselor is saying about me, and really what came of it was you guys are both riddled with addiction yourselves. Whether you think it's somebody else's problem or not, it's your problem because other people put that on you. You still have to deal with it. So us both individually separating and saying I want to do this for my niece and nephew and it doesn't matter what he wants, and for him to say I want to do this for my niece and nephew and it doesn't matter what she wants, and for us to come together and both make that decision separately.
Speaker 2:Now I lead my entire life that way. I don't ever make decisions based on somebody else's wants or their needs, and it sucks because I am the person that takes care of everyone and that's even prominent in my career. I teach 566 technicians for free, right, but I don't do that for them. I do that for me, I do that for my industry because I care about what happens to the future of this world, but also I can only control what I do today. So I can say a million times over this person can talk shit, but they could have helped and they chose not to. They just chose to talk shit. And then I'm sitting here talking shit, right, and I'm not doing anything to help the problem. And so now we just have this massive problem and a bunch of people talking shit. Well, I chose to, every single time I have something to talk shit about, stand up and do something to help.
Speaker 2:And because of this situation where I had a very big choice either step up and get those kids out of separate group homes and they were past adoptable age by far it would not have been good for either one of them, but it also wouldn't have been good for me, because I would have still been talking shit in another 12 years instead of sitting here looking at those faces that are killing it at life, graduating with straight A's and just being amazing human beings loving and caring so much about other people. And I would have missed out on that and it wouldn't have been any fault of my own. So I had to take that responsibility and say this is what I'm going to do. You can decide what you want. And then we just happened to decide it together and because we did, it saved the way both of us look at relationships where now neither one of us was ever able to separate from our families either. Like, my mom was the matriarch. She told me to do it and I did it, and that was it.
Speaker 2:Well, my mom passed away in 2023 and I'm like man had I just made some of my own decisions, had my sisters maybe this would be different, but he was in the same situation with his dad and his four brothers. So we were both at a crossroads, where it was we're going to keep living for everybody else or we're going to start living individually for ourselves, and there can't be a medium about it. It can't be just you and your husband, it can't be just you and your kids. It has to be you alone or you for all of them. So I'm really glad that this happened to us, not only because I got two amazing kids out of it, but because all the things Val and I needed to learn about our own addictions and how addiction made us suffer was taught to us through that situation. So I think it was probably the single catalyst of my life. Was that happening to us?
Speaker 1:So I'm just curious how long did that, god? It sounds like a grueling process, but how long did that process take from the time you decided to go and you guys went to get help, and then they said well, we need to see each other separately? How long did that take?
Speaker 2:Oh boy, so long, so long. So in the state of Maine, as it is everywhere, the foster care system is completely broken. It's shattered and broken and the pieces are spread out over an entire country. So there is no amount of time that you can think could possibly be it, because it will always be more beyond that. But for us, for our situation, we were going into kinship care, which is different than foster care. We were not offered financial help because we were already able to financially support the kids, which was totally fine.
Speaker 2:But you still have to go through that process, so that time is still spent. We had to have a home study, we had to do federal background checks, we had to have both of us had to be in counseling separately, because they don't put kids with family members who might revert and allow that family member to come in. I could have let my sister come raise them in my house, for all they knew they didn't know. So I have to be able to separate myself from her and that's all. Psychiatric evaluations, that's all. Oh my God, there's so much that goes into it. The fire marshal had to come and make sure my windows were big enough. There was just so much involved, I think from the time that DCF dropped them on my doorstep to the time where they were actually permanency guardianship. My children was probably three years and in that time we also did two heart surgeries. They were both born with genetic defects from addiction.
Speaker 2:So we were just going through this grueling process with the state trying to be absolute, perfect, upstanding citizens, even though my reputation because of my family wasn't the greatest. When you're the only one in your family that could even pass a federal background check, it doesn't look good for you, right? But it worked. It actually worked out and actually their father's brother tried to fight me for the kids in the very beginning. He is a army sergeant at the time and has a much bigger house than I have. He has a much bigger income than I have at the time and he won the kids.
Speaker 2:And so I had done all this work and gotten my heart broken. I'd had the kids from the day they got dropped off until this moment. So they ripped them away from me and moved them to Connecticut, four states away. So I wasn't going to see them again. And three weeks later, luckily, I got the call from the brother, the uncle, who said I'm coming to drop the kids off to you. I can't do this, so for me it took a little bit longer because of that whole ridiculous process as well. But I would say if someone were to do it, it would be probably closer to two years before you're at a point where you can just raise your kids the way you want to and go, and even then there's rules.
Speaker 1:So how long was it before you and Val, let's say, got on the same page with I'm going to do this for me and you're going to do this for you, and we can agree on. We're going to do this that way?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that was even longer. So we made the decision to take the kids before that process was ever over. This was just us making the individual decision to take the kids, yes or no. We had no idea what that was going to come with and it came with severe trauma, severe medical problems, autism, so many things. So I guess looked at each other and went, this is where it starts. Not, like most people probably, sigh and say, phew, it's over For us. We were like we just learned all of these things about ourselves. So this is where it starts, this is day one for us. And that was three years into having the kids. So I would say it doesn't, it doesn't. You never finish that process.
Speaker 2:And even still, like I have people even come into the coalition that are, have great drive, they want to help, they are selfless, they're amazing and they lie Right. And so for me, I was the person before this whole process that would believe them, because I, part of my trauma bond, was wanting to be lied to. I wanted to believe my sisters. I wanted to believe all of the crazy stories that they told me as to why my nieces and nephews were fine, even though I knew they weren't. I wanted the easy information right. And so when I meet someone even now in my career and I'm like-minded with them or I feel like we have a kindred ship right, and then I find out that a lot of it was lies, it takes me even longer to figure that out than it would normal people, because I have to actively tell myself you need to listen, you need to watch, you need to be present in this or that person is going to just completely pull the wool over your eyes. And now I have people in place that help me with that process, because I know myself, I know that's part of my trauma bond and if somebody seems like they need love from me, I will just give it openly and not think about it. And that's what I had to learn on my own.
Speaker 2:And Val is the opposite. He had to learn to not enable me in that right. He's the guy that wanted to save me and to bring me away from my family and give me this beautiful life. And he did. He absolutely did, and all it did was make me dependent, make me scared, because I didn't have that stability that I was creating for myself.
Speaker 2:And then the second that we got into a situation where it was like I'm going to try HVAC. He was like this is hard for me. This is hard to let you do a dangerous job. It's hard for me to let you do a job where I know people are going to bully you and put you in a bad situation. I know you'll get through it, but I don't want to put you there. And so him being in the field for 28 years at this point he's like you're going to hate it here. It's going to be awful for you. So he had to learn to let go and let me fail on my own, which was hard for him or fly, and I flew. So had he not learned that, I would not be here today. Hvac chicks coalition would not be a thing. All of my students would not have a teacher. All of my mentees would never mentor. So pretty huge to learn that about yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he had yeah.
Speaker 2:So he had to learn how to not be the savior, and you had to learn how not to be the saved basically, exactly, we were the perfect damsel in distress and white knight syndrome for many years and looking back, going, I can't believe that was me right. It was crazy. But I was also taught by an addicted mother that if you're the victim, it's okay to do some things. Sometimes it's not okay for some people to do it, but if you're a victim, it's okay for you. And so being the victim and saying I'm going to have my own white knight syndrome here and I'm going to make sure nobody else is ever a victim, so I'll always just be the victim it was eyeopening at best but life-changing at most. I think because, knowing I always thought of myself as the good sister. I worked harder, I went to college, I did everything I could to make my mom proud. I worked harder, I went to college, I did everything I could to make my mom proud, and it was never enough and I was the victim. No matter what happened, no matter how much work I put in, I was the victim because I was making sure of it. And so then, when I met Val, it was a perfect storm. It was like this guy would wait on me hand and foot. If I asked him to, I could be a real life Cinderella right now and I thought that was what I wanted and I knew that was what he wanted to give. But I didn't know that those weren't our personalities, that those were trauma just coming out in a really weird way. So now we are the complete opposite.
Speaker 2:Val is like this, extremely like. I can't even describe Val because he really just doesn't exist anywhere else in the earth. But he handles me being at the forefront of the spotlight in his trade. That he taught me right. He's been my teacher. So every teacher has a teacher or many, and he's been one of mine.
Speaker 2:So, knowing that I'm out here winning awards, that I'm out here there's not an HVAC tech in the world that doesn't know my name or a manufacturer that doesn't know my name and that they know my name, not for necessarily the work I'm doing in HVAC, but for the work I'm doing with people he really just it does not bother him and I always say, like people will say, oh, it does, but he's just not telling you he's not that type because he learned how not to be. He had to learn how not to be that type Because if not, this whole my entire family would steamroll right over him, but he just stands. So many, like at the tactical awards last week people are shaking his hand, like how does it feel to be with a celebrity? And he's like it feels amazing.
Speaker 2:She's great, isn't she? But he had to learn to be that because 10 years ago he would have shielded me like a I don't even know like a DEA agent and made sure nobody saw me and nobody touched me and nobody hurt me. And now he has to just push me out there and say you can do this, to just push me out there and say you can do this and I know you can and watch it happen over and over again every day.
Speaker 1:So we both have a lot to learn. It sounds like he had to put his ego, to completely put his ego to the side, and that's really cool.
Speaker 2:We both did. Really, I think that's the number one thing about addiction, whether you're a family member, whether you're active addiction, whether you're an alcoholic, ego is sometimes the death of human beings, of humanity, and so you can't care about another human being more than you care about yourself, unless you have taken the actual time and done the actual work to destroy that ego altogether. So Brian Orr actually asked me on a podcast once how do you manage to love every woman that walks in front of you as if she's your sister, when other women can't even stand to be in the same room with other women without fighting or jealousy and all these things? And that is the answer. I had my ego stomped so desperately that it will never, ever reappear again. I just had to get rid of all of that. I had to in order to learn and do that inner work. I had to learn that I was the problem, and so when you learn that you're the problem, you have to if you take responsibility for that that you were the problem.
Speaker 2:In all of those fights you ever had with another woman, you were the problem. You can't blame somebody else's work that they haven't done on them. You have to blame the work you didn't do on yourself and that's all you can do. So both of us having to do that like that, and even our counselors looked right at us and said you shouldn't be together, You're toxic. Like they told us we should break up right now, right here today. And they were like there's no way anyone could do this amount of work where you guys could be a healthy relationship, and sure enough, not even a year later. It was like looking at two new human beings. So not saying it works for everybody, but I am saying if you can lay that ego down and you can understand that you're the problem, you can move on. You can move mountains in this world. You really can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, your ego is not your amigo. No, not at all. Yeah, it's ego, and ego shows up in different ways.
Speaker 2:It's not just typical what you think, it is right.
Speaker 1:Right, it's not just typical what you think. It is right. Right, because it was ego with you getting in the relationship with Val, and it was his ego saving you. It was your ego getting saved and a lot of people think about ego as just like….
Speaker 2:Pompousness right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it can definitely show up that way, for sure. But I think there's different flavors of ego and I think sometimes it's hard to recognize unless you've done a lot of deep work. But you've got to do a lot of deep work in order to get to that point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the problem with ego is that it's a defense mechanism, right? So it's how we save ourselves, or so we think, right, so it's how we save ourselves, or so we think right. So when I'm constantly protecting myself from Val, a man who would lay his life on the line for me any day, that doesn't make much sense. But to my ego it's like you don't need him to take care of you, but you also definitely don't need him to tell you're the problem. So anytime he would say, okay, yeah, I did this, but this was your part in it. I would say F you, I didn't have a part in it. Right, that's your ego. Your ego is the part you play and there's. You have to take responsibility for it. There's no one else at fault, Just you. So that was the hard part, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we all have a part in any situation.
Speaker 2:If you're in the situation you had a part in it Yep, amen. And that could be negative, positive, negative, positive, negative, positive, back and forth the whole time you're opening your mouth right, or your body language or your physical, you could literally give somebody a hug the wrong way because of your ego. And that was the part I didn't know. I didn't know that the I thought everything I was doing was to protect myself from this, from being a victim, and had to learn that I was actually creating a space in which I could always be the victim, no matter what, and even my intelligence. My counselor looked at me and said why do you strive for intelligence so badly? And I said the typical right, because nobody in my family ever graduated college. Nobody in my family ever got their high school diploma.
Speaker 2:All of my siblings are not as intelligent as me and they were like okay, but so you did all of this with your whole life just to impress your mom and I'm like okay, and then, on top of that, I get into a trade that's male dominated. So now I have to be the smartest one in the room or I'm not worth anything in my mind. That's ego. That's not real, and ego is not just thinking you're the best. Sometimes it's doing hard work in order to be the best that you can be, only because you weren't enough for yourself to begin with, not because you have to be the best in the room. I don't have to be the smartest in the room. I have so many people you've seen. Anybody who knows me sees my network. That's what makes me intelligent, not the fact that I stayed up studying to get four years of MIT done in two and a half years.
Speaker 2:I did that to myself, for no reason other than my own ego, made no sense. Nobody cares about it. It did not give me anything further than what I already had. It was a way for me to prove to myself that I not only could do it, but I could do it and be the best. But then I had to hear from my counselor. So what made you the best? And hearing that was the most earth shattering question I've ever been asked, because I couldn't answer it.
Speaker 1:Hang on, hang on. Did you say you you fit it? You did you say you completed MIT in two and a half years. Is that what you said?
Speaker 2:That's what I said. I still had to physically go to school after that. But, yeah, my workload was done in two and a half years for absolutely no reason whatsoever, and I was a mom of four at the time. So, yeah, and then, and also so when I got into HVAC this is actually why this happened and it's so funny that I'm just going to share it here, because I will never go this deep into my life again.
Speaker 2:I'm sure I only applied to be a mechanical engineer because the company that Val was at told me they would hire me, told me they would hire me and then didn't hire me, and the reason that they gave was we can't have two vans in one driveway. So I know it's because I'm a female, I'm not stupid, but I can't say that. But I know. And so I said I'm going to show them. Because the owner was a UNH accredited engineer and I said I'm going to show him. So here's my ego again. Right Cause and problems for me. So I did. I not only I applied to eight different schools, I got accepted at five of them. I chose MIT because it's MIT, for no other reason other than its name. I did not know any professors, I had not done any research. I knew the name MIT and I said I know that beats UNH. So that's why I became an engineer and that's the sole reason, the only reason.
Speaker 2:And now I look back and I don't need the engineering degree, I have to do the engineering work. I do so where my and I said this to my sister once where you look back and you look at the wasted time and addiction. I wasted my time and addiction as well. I was addicted to having to be the best. I was addicted to it had to be MIT. I couldn't have taken a two year associates program. I couldn't have just gone to ACA and learned how to do a manual J. I had to do it way better than everybody else did and I lost that time too. So she and I together now just have this constant need to do something now and to experience it, because we are not getting any younger and our egos aren't going to be at the spot where they are right now ever again. And that's why it's so important not to look to the future or the past.
Speaker 2:And I wanted to come on here because I wanted everybody to know they're all in addiction right. So, like I said to you guys, because I haven't experienced it myself. That was a complete and utter lie. That was to get you here right. I have experienced it myself and I experience it myself every day and I also have to come clean and tell you all that I'm still in active addiction with my family members. I'm still in active addiction with my cigarettes and my coffee and my work, right. So anybody who thinks they're not in active addiction, you need a meeting, you absolutely need a meeting and I still, to this day, when I've never had a single substance abuse issue other than the ones I've mentioned in my lifetime, I still today go to meetings because we're all in addiction and we all need a community and we all need sponsorship. Every single one of us Shit yeah it's deep.
Speaker 1:I didn't, I just didn't, I just didn't see all that coming.
Speaker 1:That's but you're yeah, but you're, but you are, you're 100 right regard. And it's fascinating to me because I don't talk to a ton of people that have that sort of insight that can recognize those other things that are on the surface. People don't look at those things as addiction. They look at the bad shit as addiction. They don't look at the things that you've listed. It's all the same If it has control over you and if it's something that pulls you in ways that you'd rather not be pulled, then that's what you're dealing with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, success, success is an addiction for me. I have to constantly remind myself that working an extra hour isn't going to help me in any way. And that's now, that's after I know. So, yeah, for people to think that breaking addictions is, or should be, an easy thing or that it's personality-based either you have an addictive personality or you don't it's all wrong, it's all backwards. You have to understand that having success be your addiction is just as harmful maybe not physically to your body, but mentally to your mind. It is because you leave all of those wonderful things that you could experience on the table while you drive for that success. And then, when you wake up one day and you're 36 and you go, wait a minute, what just happened to all of my time? And I'm asking the same questions of myself that my sister, who lived in active addiction for 25 years, is asking herself. There is no difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a hundred percent. One of the things that I think is just for me, it's a god thing when I get into conversations with people like yourself that I don't know a ton about, and an addiction is the primary conversation. There's always some sort of magic that comes out of those conversations that that I would have never been able to predict in my life, and so and I'll chat with you about what that is I had no idea all the shit that you do, and you said a few things that I'm like holy shit, there's some things that I can help you with. For sure that it's going to twist your brain. I would love that. Yeah, and there's. We would have never known that if we hadn't have sat here and had this conversation about all the crazy shit that we've talked about.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So now imagine all the decades that nobody talked about addiction while it was raging around the country and the world. So those are all missed conversations, those are missed little nuggets of magic that can be passed on and on.
Speaker 1:Now I won't ask specifically whatever meetings that you go to, but I am curious as it pertains to. You're fully aware that I'm in a 12-step program. Part of that is that I have a sponsor and I have sponsees and those things sponsees especially are what really keep me. What's what keeps me sober, helping other people like you do with your community? So do you work with people also in that program like that?
Speaker 2:So I do so the ones that I go to. I have not been physically to one that is for active addiction as of yet I'm hoping to but this all kind of came about right before COVID and it was just really hard to navigate, and that's the other thing we need to change. It is way too hard to navigate recovery first of all, but that's another story. But, yeah, so what I am part of now and I have been part of active online virtual meetings many times in the past but what I'm part of now is one that is specifically for family members, and the reason for that is that my kids are now adults so one is 17 and one is 18, my two foster kids and so I needed to learn how to do the work. That was a step beyond. I had gotten to a good point working on myself, that I now need to know how to help them, because now they're adults and now they're going to be exposed to things that they just can't try even once. There's going to be exposed to things that they just can't try even once that they. There's going to be situations where people take advantage of what's happened to them, and I guess I saw it happening.
Speaker 2:All of my kids are now homeschooled. My son, my foster son and my biological daughter graduated last year. They're both working in trades. So now I'm like I know what the trades are, I live here, right, and so I don't want it to get him, when he's done so much work as a child, to not be part of that mess. So that's why I go to one. That's for family members. Now it's mostly to forge networking and communication, and then also friends that are in the same situation as him, where they can go to a movie with each other and they're not going to look at the alcohol because they know they can't. But they don't have to say that to each other necessarily.
Speaker 2:You know how it can be when you're in recovery and my son is not in recovery, but he is in recovery right, so he would have to say that and so just trying to network for him is really where I'm at now.
Speaker 2:But I also have help on the spa and seaside for myself, and it's families who have done this over and over again, like it's so huge for me to have done it once that I can't imagine it. But there are families, there are couples, there are single people who have done this 50 or more times with 50 or more families. So those are the people that I really need to learn from right now as I struggle in my own addictions and then as I struggle in keeping my kids where I raised them Right. So that's it. Right now I obviously I'm a mentor of HVAC technicians and I'm also I sit on the board for HVAC and recovery, so people who are in recovery or who need recovery do tend to reach out to me, but I don't. I'm not where I need to be yet enough to sponsor somebody that's in addiction.
Speaker 1:Well, that's an interesting statement, Because and here's what I would say to someone that if someone in my program said that to me and they've got five days further along than the one person, then I would say you have five days worth of experience that you can share with that guy that has zero. And that's the truth. Now this other the program you're talking about and I think I know what you're referring to that also helped you with your mom.
Speaker 2:Yes, it does so and I also have. So I have diagnosed PTSD from my childhood, from things that happened within that timeframe, and so I've had really great therapists at the same time who understood that I would go in there and sit there with my mouth shut for an hour and pay for it because I didn't want to do this Right, and so a lot of the time what they did was they just talked, and so, the way that I am and in my need to learn constantly, I couldn't avoid learning what they were saying, right? So now I have a whole group of people within that families of addiction community where that's what we do the people who come in and they don't want to talk. We just talk around them, we talk to them and then eventually most of them end up on our side of the fence, right.
Speaker 2:But as far as I also think and this is going to be super controversial, but I also think I have had a very deep root in addiction, right, but I have not been in the shoes of the people like my sister living under a bridge for two years over active addiction. I can't relate to that and I don't think it's right for me to accidentally condescend them because I don't understand. And so that's what I what I mean when I say I don't think I'm ready to have a sponsee under me. It's not about sharing my experience, it's about holding their safe and sacred.
Speaker 1:Oh, I see what you mean. Okay, so when I said that I was really more talking about yeah, I would agree that was people on the same plane, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah To somebody. I am so involved and it would seem that would be a good idea for me. But for me I'm also so disconnected Like I can still look at my sister and say, oh, why didn't you just call me? Like that's a crazy answer to anything she says, but I still say it and that's just not helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:If we're going to use, we're not going to call you Right. Why would I do that? You're the last person I'm going to call.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like it's funny, a guy called me two nights ago and he said hey, I need. He said do you want to go on a 12-step call? I've never been on an actual 12-step call, oh awesome. And so it was a friend of ours that went back out for the 20th, fucking fifth time and so I called his sponsor after I got off the phone with the guy because we decided not to go for various reasons, because he got belligerent and whatever and so I called his sponsor. He was like I said I guess you've heard about. So he was like Corey, like I'm his fucking sponsor, I'm the last dude that hears about all this. And I'm like I said I guess you've heard about.
Speaker 2:So he was like Corey, like I'm his fucking sponsor, I'm the last dude that hears about all this and I'm like, of course, and it's great for that accountability, because if you care that much about disappointing that person, that should show you how much you mean to them.
Speaker 2:But when you are that person, you're like they hate me, they don't respect me, they don't care if I know about their life, they think that I'm going to and you. That was the other part of the ego that had to die for me. It was like I would say to her. I would say ditch the boyfriend and come live with me. I'll get you help, I will pay for your whole life. I, you, will be with your kids. I would be everything you could ever imagine, and that's why she would never call me. So what she wanted to hear, she wanted to hear here's 50 bucks. You and your boyfriend go have fun. So but that accountability, just if you are in that situation where you have someone that you love that is in addiction and they're mad at you, just know that you're probably doing the right thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly Because it doesn't. It wouldn't matter if you had a road paved with gold. Yeah, that would not be appealing, unless she could take the gold and turn it in for money and turn it in for meth right.
Speaker 2:That'd be the only reason that'd be interesting. We have a running joke in our family. So there was this pawn shop called Jimmy's and that's she used to steal all of our stuff. The second she'd get in your house she'd steal all of our stuff and go take it to Jimmy's. So every time she'd leave and we'd notice something missing, we'd call Jimmy's. We'd say, hey, you got my laptop, you got my camera wherever it is. So now, still to this day, she called me the other day and we're 16 months sober Right and she says have you seen my debit card? She's like I didn't leave it.
Speaker 2:I thought I may have left at your house and and like now we can look back and laugh about it and that's great. But like in that situation, I just remember being so angry about how she didn't love me, she didn't respect me because she lied to me and didn't just tell me she stole it. But now, looking back, and she'll even say this out loud I didn't tell you because I didn't want you to look down on me, I didn't feel like I was worthy of you, I didn't feel like I could just ask you because I didn't want you to know all these things that are like so ego killing that I'm like man, I, my sister, just loved me and I shouldn't seen that. But when you don't understand addiction, it's really hard to navigate feelings like that. So she's like I'm sorry I stole from you. That's the best we can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's why I think it's so hard, like if you look at somebody who is who's gotten cancer and they're struggling, like we feel bad for those people. We don't feel bad for the alcoholic because it's it's too different. They're in a different box and but they're not in a different box because it's this when you're in addiction is just is more hereditary than cancer.
Speaker 2:And that's not even just nature, that's nurture as well. So when you picture there's two sides of a person nature versus nurture right and then you have addiction in that it's smashing both of those two sides together and making one giant mess that becomes a real person. So you have to. Someone can have cancer and they can get treatment and they can get through it. My mom did Right, and then my mom also died of cancer, but what didn't happen is she didn't stop drinking until two months before she passed away.
Speaker 2:So there's having it, having both of those two things in one person like looking at the cancer as a disease and not looking at her alcoholism as a disease was eye opening. After she passed away, I had to go back and go. I literally told this like I couldn't see her cancer either, right, but I told this person that she was making excuses for having a disease that she really had, but I didn't tell her that about her cancer. So I guess when you see it both of those two things in one person it's like they're the exact same thing, except cancer eventually either lets go or doesn't. Alcoholism never lets go, period Ever.
Speaker 1:Not, unless you make a decision to let it go.
Speaker 2:Right, you have to let it go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like a best friend. It's like a best friend, like you don't want to let it go, no matter how much pain. Or like in, like you don't want to let it go, no matter how much pain. Or, like you said at the beginning of this, it's like an abusive relationship. You just keep coming back for more.
Speaker 2:My sister, who's still in addiction actually I'll share this in the group wrote a poem. I think she was 17 and it got published in the anthology of poetry and it was just this big thing. It was on the news and it was called Lady Heroine and it was written as a love letter from the user to the heroine, as if heroine was a person. And I think every time somebody asks me why an addict can't just say no or can't just stop or can't just accept help, that poem is in my head every single time and having been in abusive relationships, being the product of an abusive relationship myself, that I can understand right. So once I realized those two were the same exact thing, I could understand it.
Speaker 2:If you picture that battered women go back to their abuser 35 to 205 times in their lifetime before they leave or die. How many is it for alcohol? How many is it for meth? How many is it for heroin? Even cigarettes I can't tell you how many times I've quit cigarettes. It just doesn't stick for very long, because that's my best friend I've quit cigarettes.
Speaker 1:It just doesn't stick for very long, because that's my best friend. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. So I know we're getting close on time. We've gone. I think we got a little bit over, but this is dude. This has been such a great conversation. I have really enjoyed hearing all about like, yeah, I, now I get why you're cool.
Speaker 2:But seeing what you and Jason are doing and realizing, I know how deep of a problem it is in trades, but also in the world, right, and so I just wanted to be part of that. I want to make sure that you guys have one perspective and I have a completely different perspective, but I think all of the perspectives have to be talked about in order for everyone to understand that we all need this. So I urge everybody to go to one of the 12-step meetings if you feel that's what you need. If not, we have even just community hangouts on Saturday where you can talk about literally anything you want to talk about addiction or not. Get a community, that's all that matters. All that matters is you are part of a community that loves you and that will do anything for you. That's all I care about. It's the only reason I'm here on this podcast today is to make sure everyone knows there are multiple avenues.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate that and such a great perspective. Where can people find you?
Speaker 2:Sure, so the HVHX Coalition group on Facebook is my hub, and then we have HVHXcom has all of our forms. If you want to apply for help in some way but you also don't have to do any of that you can email me at Jennifer at skillcatopcom. You can find me, hvhx Jennifer, on every platform, including LinkedIn. And then HVAC and recovery is also on Facebook, and HVAC and recoverygov is the website for that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, All right, Jen, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on today.
Speaker 2:All right, jen, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on today. Thank you, corey, I really appreciate you having me. And not only that what you and Jason are doing is the one thing that was missing from our group and from the industry, so please keep doing that. I know it's so hard, especially with the added days you guys added, but you guys are the difference for so many people, so keep it up. Whatever I can do to help you, I will do it.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. I really appreciate you Anytime. All right, let me see how to turn this live off. I don't know if I have a clue how to do it. All right, so I'm probably just going to have to end the call, because I literally have no idea.
Speaker 2:That's fine. If you need me, just text me. Thank you so much, corey. Seriously,
