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Successful Life Podcast
Self-Improvement Podcast for Contractors that want to learn about how to grow their business through management and marketing. Develop business ideas to improve your business experience and be successful. Real stories from real business owners.
Successful Life Podcast
Navigating Tough Times: Landon Taylor on Resilience and Referrals
Learn how to turn customer referrals into a powerful marketing machine in our latest episode with Landon Taylor, the innovative mind behind Snoball. Landon shares his journey from facing near-crisis challenges in the financial services sector to developing Snoball, a tech-forward solution designed to enhance word-of-mouth marketing for home service companies. Discover the synergy between Snoball and AI tools like WhoHire, and gather insights on leveraging technology to address staffing challenges and boost marketing efforts in industries like HVAC and plumbing.
Meet Landon Taylor as he recounts the trials of surviving Google's policy changes and the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on his business. Gain an understanding of the critical role that customer relationships and authentic referral programs play, even when facing severe financial strains. Learn from Landon's personal anecdotes about perseverance, innovation, and how these adversities led to the birth of Snoball, a platform that systematizes referrals and reviews to help home service businesses thrive.
Beyond business, we touch on the emotional and mental hurdles entrepreneurs face, with Landon sharing candid stories about balancing work and family life. He emphasizes the importance of support networks, mentors, and self-care in navigating challenging times. Finally, dive into practical strategies for managing online reviews and building customer loyalty with affordable marketing solutions that promise clear ROI. Tune in for a heartfelt conversation brimming with actionable insights and real-life experiences.
https://snoball.com/
https://whohire.com
https://www.audible.com/pd/9-Simple-Steps-to-Sell-More-ht-Audiobook/B0D4SJYD4Q?source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=library_overflow
https://www.amazon.com/Simple-Steps-Sell-More-Stereotypes-ebook/dp/B0BRNSFYG6/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1OSB7HX6FQMHS&keywords=corey+berrier&qid=1674232549&sprefix=%2Caps%2C93&sr=8-1
https://bit.ly/4bFz4yc https://www.housecallpro.com/successullife
https://www.facebook.com/corey.berrier
https://www.linkedin.com/in/coreysalescoach/
Welcome to the Successful Life Podcast. I'm your host, corey Barrier, and I'm here with my man, landon Taylor. What's up, landon? Hey, what's up, corey? Good to see you man. Yeah, you too. So I'm super excited about this conversation. Landon, before we dive into it, why don't you just give everybody a high-level overview of kind of what you do and who you work with and all that good stuff?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. So first off, on a personal level, my wife Kelsey and I we have five kids ages 17 down to 7, three boys, two girls, and we live in Alpine Utah. We've got a little dog named Mabel, a little golden doodle teacup, and yeah, we love sports. Right, like sports is a huge part of our lives and you know, I played and coached and then my kids all play different sports and so that's a big part of our lives and then really busy just with family stuff.
Speaker 2:But on the business side, I've been an entrepreneur for gosh going on 14 years. I have sold two businesses prior. It hasn't all been sunshine and roses, right. It's a rollercoaster ride which comes with lows and comes with highs, but what the businesses have always been involved in is customer acquisition at some level, right. So the first two companies were more lead generation for brands, and then now our current company, snowball.
Speaker 2:What we do is we really systematize the word-of-mouth marketing flywheel for brands. So home service companies they do phenomenal work. They have really happy customers. But word-of-mouth is hard to systematize. It kind of just happens organically. We come in and we help systematize that motion so they can get the most out of their happy customers referrals, reviews, build their reputation, those kinds of things. So we've really taken our experience in customer acquisition and built a system around that and no better, no better industry to do that for than home service companies.
Speaker 2:You know, I love when people come to my home and help with like HVAC or, you know, or garage door or whatever it might be. Those are some of the finest people on the planet, right? The trades folks. They're talented. My dad was a general contractor for 30 years and so I've kind of been around it and I just the type of people they're just down to earth, hardworking, and so we're really excited to kind of be able to bring some technology and experience in an area where maybe they don't have as much of that and we feel it's a good kind of combination.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you know you're working with. You know, working with you know I've been working with AI for I don't know well really, since ChatGPT, you know, first was launched I mean, I was just, you know, my mind was just blown and so now with WhoHire and working with them, I agree with you and I also agree that you know this industry does have a lot of it's a. You know, the average plumber, at least I'll say in north carolina, is about 63 years old. So that means they're, they're phasing out pretty quickly, right, and you know there's not a lot of folks coming in, and so I think, by right now, adopting technology, it couldn't be more. There couldn't be a better time to do it and a more important time to do it, because a lot of folks are, you know, they, they hear about ai and they hear wherever they're hearing it from, whether it's the news or whether it's social media, and a lot of people think that ai is this devil of a thing, but it's just not.
Speaker 1:Could you use it for bad, of course, but the people in our industry are not doing that, and so the folks that are listening, if they're not up to date on this, or at least crack the book open a little bit on this. They just got to get in the game. It's so important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and maybe when I talked to WhoHire, the thing that was just a light bulb moment for me is we're in the process of remodeling a bathroom in our home, and so we've had HVAC folks and plumbing folks come to our home. So every time I talk to them right, because I'm curious on what they're doing for word of mouth marketing, but also what they're doing just in general, and to a man every single one of them, right, when they leave the house. I'm so thrilled with the work they've done. I want to spread the word, I want to tell my neighbors, I want to tell my family members, and so I asked them a question of why haven't you been able to scale? I'm assuming I'm not the only happy customer here and you know.
Speaker 2:What most of them say is, yeah, the word-of-mouth marketing piece is important, but some of them can't scale because they can't properly staff at scale. And so when I talk to WhoHire and they have this solution for leveraging AI to find good folks to grow their business, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is the catalyst. And then you piece in the word of mouth marketing system and now a company that's here can go to here and really grow. So love what WhoHire is doing. Absolutely love it Well and with not a lot of effort too.
Speaker 1:So it's like you know, I think you know, I think a lot of folks you know, when you're running your own business maybe you're running a two, four, six million dollar shop you know you are wearing a lot of folks. You know, when you're running your own business maybe you're running a two, four, six million dollar shop you know you are wearing a lot of hats marketing. You're the general manager, you're the sales manager a lot of times and things slip through the cracks. And I think with what you're talking about and what we've done, we've done at WhoHire, it eliminates so many steps that you can kind of check the box off and not have to worry about them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. You can go to bed at night knowing those areas of your business which you probably don't want to do. Right, if you're in the trades you want to do what you do best. You can go to bed at night knowing those are handled for you. I mean what power you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, at the highest level, dude, I mean what power you know. Yeah, at the highest level too. I mean at a level like it's hard to even comprehend because of the human data that we've ingested from people in the field. And matching that up with the people that are coming in, it's just, it's unparalleled. There's nothing else like it. And so when you say that you systemize word mouth marketing, paint a picture of that for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. So you know so as soon as the person leaves the job, right. So let's say, let's use my HVAC folks at Kidmore Home as soon as they leave our house as the homeowner I would get, if the HVAC company is using Snowball, I would get a text and an email right after the job was complete, you know, thanking me for allowing them to come to our home. And then it would introduce the referral program and say, hey, if anybody you refer, you know we'll pay you, let's say $500 if they become a new customer. And there's a link in that text. Snowball handles all of the referral program, everything from capturing the referrals, getting that to you so you can then work an appointment, and then also, once it becomes a customer, paying out the referral commission. So everything end-to-end for the referral piece. But, more importantly, what's at the core of what we do is this conversational engine piece. But more importantly, what's at the core of what we do is this conversational engine. So there's that first outreach over text.
Speaker 2:But then most people don't have somebody to refer right off the bat, right? You need to condition them to feel like an ambassador of your brand. So we will nurture a conversation for the lifetime of their account. If they say, hey, check back with me in three months, we will check back in three months. It takes on average two and a half outreaches before we get the first referral, and then 50% of new referrals come from somebody who's already referred at least one person.
Speaker 2:What all that means is it takes time to earn the top of mind of your happy customers. And so there's the ongoing nurturing element. We ask for a referral first because if they don't have one but they indicate they're a happy customer, we'll ask for a review from the happy customers. If somebody's unhappy or they need you know they're kind of a detractor we'll triage that to the company so they can fix it and try to turn that detractor to an advocate. So it's really at the core it's this ongoing conversational engine to harvest referrals and reviews from your happy customers so you can know that somebody it's akin to hiring an assistant who all they're doing is talking to your customers on a one-to-one basis to get those things.
Speaker 1:Makes sense. Yeah, that makes complete sense. So you make it easy enough to just share the referral link straight from the text message.
Speaker 2:Exactly right.
Speaker 1:Yep, yeah, convenience is key in that situation. Now, yeah, that's fascinating. So if I refer out Joe down the street to the ABC HVAC, yep, and Joe becomes a customer, I receive a check.
Speaker 2:That's right, and Snowball will handle all that getting you paid, keeping you updated on the status, all of that. But that's exactly right. You get a referral commission and you get paid over Venmo or checking them out. You get a referral commission and you get paid over Venmo or checking a mail. So it's all about you know one thing, corey, that we've seen is companies that try to establish a referral program but kind of do it half-baked. They run the risk of their happy customers having a crappy experience with their referral program and really kind of like not becoming as happy as the customers they're like this referral program is pretty janky, so we want to make sure the referral experience is as good as the service they received, so that they are a super ambassador. So everything from like how we pay, how we speak to the customers, is just white glove. We want to make sure that they have a great experience beyond the job.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because the job could be great and then have a great experience, and then the referral process goes sideways and that could sour the relationship.
Speaker 2:Exactly you know where they say hey, I was promised 500 bucks. I referred my mom, she got. You know, she worked, she got a new bathroom or whatever, but I never received my 500. What's up with that? And now the trust. Right, there's just a little thing to the trust and it's too bad because the service was so good. So that's what we do is we make sure we meet the level of quality that they're providing at the service level.
Speaker 1:We meet the level of quality that they're providing at the service level. Yeah, and you're really tapping the customers that you've already paid for to begin with, right?
Speaker 2:So you've already paid to have those people. Yeah, and maybe a quick story Corey on that is this is kind of a deep-rooted pain that is a motivator for us, of a deep-rooted pain that is a motivator for us. In my years of customer acquisition we've spent gosh probably $60 million with Google running ads. Right, our business we lived off of Google. Right, we were dependent on Google. And we had some times in our history where Google would make a unilateral change, algorithm change or policy change and overnight our business was brought to its knees overnight. And the dependency on Google they don't care necessarily about your business, right, they don't care, especially the smaller. You are right.
Speaker 2:And so I've got this deep-rooted, uh, motivation to allow the good companies, big or small, to control their own destiny and when they get a customer now there's a place for google, there's a place for affiliates, there's a place for traditional marketing, but once you have a customer like your best source of new customers should be that happy customer, and so that's what we're trying to extract, and it's seeded with this like we felt the pain right, acutely, that a lot of companies feel when they're trying to get new leads on Google and other platforms.
Speaker 1:You know it's interesting. I had a guy on a couple of weeks ago, drew Harden, and he voiced the same thing. He had bought into a franchise and he said he was somewhere in California, which shouldn't shock anybody that they changed something in California. And so essentially they changed. Oh, they said great news. Lsa is kind of local, whatever it's called local service, what is?
Speaker 2:it called. Oh yeah, yeah, like a guaranteed local on Google, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, he said, except for you don't qualify, everything's going to be okay, but you know you're just not going to be a participant in this program. He said his leads went from like I want to say $40 a lead to like 180 a lead overnight and that can that can put a business out of business right, yeah and so I wonder if you've seen I'm sure you have, uh, and I'm not super educated on this, so if you have information on it, it'd be great.
Speaker 1:But I just saw a post the other day where it was talking about a judge had ruled against Google, and I don't know exactly what that means to our customers, like our home service people. What do you think that means?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't see the official ruling so I don't know if it's like official or not, but what I did see is that they have evidence that in 2020, google ran analysis that if they change their search algorithm, the bidding algorithm, to improve profits, would that diminish the experience enough to where the economics would be negative for them? So basically, they're just saying how can we make more profits by squeezing more out of this, regardless of the experience for customers? So they have evidence of that, that Google went through that exercise. What I think I'm hoping that will do is hold Google to a certain standard, but at the end of the day, they're so big they don't care.
Speaker 2:We had I'll give you another story we were doing traffic in a financial service industry in 2019. Google came in and said no more paid search, no more buying clicks in this industry, and so they said we're turning it off, which we could stomach. But a month later, we see our competitor showing up in that space and this competitor, we felt, was not looking after the customer, the consumer. The experience was poor. So we went to Google and said hey, our competitor is running. What did Google do? They turned around and slapped us harder. They put our account on, almost like a blacklist to a degree, and that competitor continued to run.
Speaker 2:So it was almost like Google was picking the winners and the losers, and this feeling of beyond just policy change More like no, we're going to feed certain winners and we're going to starve the losers. Dang dude, that's wild. So I think you know I've built a career off of Google, ppc and Bing and Facebook, so there's a place for it. But what can't be compromised is what you're doing with your own customers. You know that needs to be kind of a foundational element to a business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I agree, I agree. I do think this is an area where even some of the best run companies still don't do a great job getting reviews. They don't do a great job with certainly with referral programs. In fact, I don't know a ton that have a great, a lot of great referral programs. I just don't. I just don't Because a lot of them do say we all do X, y and Z, and then they just chalk it up to well, they won't worry, the customer won't worry about getting there, yeah, whatever we promised them, and they don't look at the damage that causes their brand.
Speaker 2:Right, right. It's very myopic, right, if they're thinking that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, out out of mind. You know it's, yeah, it's, it's really not a great way of doing business. So so tell me about a time where uh, you know, when you saw it, I assume with a financial thing you were just talking about in 2019 happened that that took a pretty big blow to the business. Tell me me about, maybe, a time that you've. You know, maybe you thought how are we going to make this? How are we going to continue keeping the doors open?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so, yeah, it was. The timing was. You know? This is maybe one example in the course of the 14-year journey where there's been downs and you still work through it. It was 2019. We were actually in the process of looking at selling our business and we had an offer come in um. You know it was for, uh, eight figures and really could have been really exciting. We passed it up months later. This was end of 2019. So we all know what happened in 2020 right with covid, but, doubling down, google came out with some sweeping policies. That it was.
Speaker 2:It was actually kind of a three-pronged punch. It was COVID, it was uh, they, they eliminating, eliminated two industries that we had done a lot of business in, and then one of our industries was mortgages and rates went way up, right. So the combination of those three brought our business to a point where we were just holding on and we've always been self-funded. We didn't have investors, we didn't have a huge cash pile and so had to take out HELOCs, had to get creative with cap, with uh, cashflow and uh, and then also in the in the same. You know, the tendency is when that stuff happens, is you kind of go into your shell, right, you self-preserve, and so we we want to make sure we didn't do that.
Speaker 2:We continue to look forward to opportunity and plant seeds for, for growth. So so Snowball was born in 2020 and 2021, the idea and we continued to invest where we could with the resources we had and then just work through it. You know you look down the abyss and you can focus on the negative, but you say you know what there's positive everywhere. We're going to keep moving forward and do the best we can with what we have. But it was rough. We were hanging by a thread there for a number of months.
Speaker 1:How did that affect you personally? You said you're married, you've got five kids. I don't know if you had all five at that point, but it sounds like you probably did. It's not easy on a family.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what I think, maybe, to a fault, sometimes I buffer what's happening at work or in the business from the family, and I think what that does sometimes is being a founder is a lonely place to be right. You don't have a lot of people you can bounce ideas off of that relate with what you're going through and then combine that with you're trying to buffer your family from the feeling. So, you know, there were times where it was pretty hard on me, as I was trying to absorb all this, to protect my family from the bad news, the business from the bad news, and then didn't have an outlet to share that right. So you know, for me, what really helped me push through I'm very much at the core of who I am is my faith, right, kind of a bigger perspective on life, right, that success in a business doesn't define who we are as a person and that the journey is really kind of where you get most of the value, and sometimes the journey you learn the most through the toughest times. And so it was maintaining that kind of long-term perspective and you know, and then just pushing through.
Speaker 2:But it was tough. If I'm being honest, it's, you know, a lot of sleepless nights. You know panic attacks and you know what I realized, corey, is the sun always comes up, attacks and and uh, you know. But what I realized for you is the sun always comes up. You know, you and I meet in the next day. There's always a lot of good around you to, to, to, to grab onto, um, and that'll always be the case. I just met. It just depends on what we decide to focus on and latch onto, and it's a choice. It's a choice, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not always an easy choice but, um, I think the people that wind up being the most successful. And I mentioned to you you said you were in Utah and I mentioned my buddy, brigham, who runs Power Selling Pros. We had a pretty similar conversation and he just said he just dropped to his knees and was just in tears because he just didn't know what to do, and you know a lot of that. He struggled with his ego and not want to accept money and I don't actually don't think he did. I think it was from his father-in-law, if I remember correctly. You know, there are just times that sometimes you just got to you do have to have faith in and something bigger than you, and sometimes it's hard to do. But my experience with that is the outcome seems to be a lot better when I can do that.
Speaker 2:I think the people you know, the people who are, who have have a lot of character, a lot of life experience, have gone through some really, really tough stuff in their lives and those are the kind of people that have a depth to them. That's unique. And it sucks going through it right at the time. You know what I mean. And sometimes it's a lot more painful than you can ever imagine. But, man, you always come out the other side right, if you just keep your eyes up, keep moving forward and you'll be better for it. But it doesn't make it any easier as you're going through it, that's for sure. Like it's not, it sucks, you know sometimes it does.
Speaker 1:No, I agree with you. But I think it also brings out a level of perseverance that unless you've gone through those hard times, it's hard to relate. If you've never gone through those tough times and heaven forbid you get presented with that and you haven't gone through something, it's going to be much tougher on you. I totally agree, totally agree. Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah, you know, I look back at the hardest times in my life and I'm super grateful for those times because things are just not so bad it's not so bad, and you probably have.
Speaker 2:I would assume you have a certain level of empathy and understanding and relatability with people that others don't right Because of what you've gone through, and I think that's one of the gifts of life is building up that kind of experience. If you live in a bubble, you know, okay, maybe life is easy, but, man, you don't grow a lot. You know what I mean. You don't learn a lot, and what are we here for, you know, if we're not going to grow and learn? And so, anyway, I always appreciate people who have gone through really tough things and and and that are using that to to bless others Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a hundred percent and a lot of that. A lot of times that's just through. You know, sometimes you just got to be the person that listens. You know you just got to be the guy that can just, you know, listen to somebody. That because you mentioned this earlier you know when you're, you know when you're a founder or when you're at the top, so to speak. There is a lot. It is really hard to find people that can be genuinely authentic with you, and it's hard to trust people to be genuinely authentic, because so many people want something that it's really hard to find that core group or even sometimes that one or two person, people that you, that you can openly share with. It's so true.
Speaker 2:Oh sorry, go ahead, corey.
Speaker 1:No, I just think it's so important to have those people in your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's this great dichotomy where I think the majority, if not all, founders want that authenticity, want that ability to connect with somebody at that level and be vulnerable both ways right To folks and have people be vulnerable to them. But few people are willing to do that because I think they think that they need to present themselves in a certain way you know what I mean To make sure their business is seen a certain way, that they're seen a certain way. They don't want to show any cracks, right, but I think everybody wants to share those cracks. They just, they just can't get. So I, I agree with you, it's I appreciate people who are real, you know, and you can connect with them on that level.
Speaker 1:Well, it's also a struggle, you know being, you know having to have a mask for this either the business or the wife or the kids. You're constantly taking this thing off and putting it back on, and that's frustrating, yeah.
Speaker 2:It just is you feel like you lose yourself, right? If you're not careful. Then you wake up one morning thinking who am I, right? I look in the mirror. Am I even doing anything for myself, right? You lose yourself, right? If you're not careful. And then you wake up one morning thinking who am I, right? I look in the mirror. Am I even doing anything for myself, right? Or am I just a face to whoever I'm talking to that day? And I don't really have. I've lost my soul, you know. So I agree, I think the more people can just appreciate the realness of life and be willing to be vulnerable, and I think people will find those, those folks, easier to follow as leaders and easier to work with those kinds of people and want to get in the trenches with them. And so, yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1:You know a lot of that comes down to trust. Really, you know, if you, you know if you're working in an organization or running an organization, there has to be trust both from the top to the bottom. And if your bottom people don't trust you as the leader, they're not going to follow you, they're not going to do what you ask them to do, they're not going to fight for you when things are going sideways. And if the leader can't show a level of empathy, if you know, I worked for a guy and he, you know, he just he was just hard driving, he cared about the numbers, that was it. And there's so, so much inauthenticity in that. But it makes you not want to perform. You know what I mean. It makes you just not want to fight for the business or for the customer, for anything, because you know that he's not. You get in a jam. You know he's not going to be there for you, right, right, and then nobody wins, right.
Speaker 2:He doesn't grow his business, you're not satisfied working for him or wanting to, you know, to throw it all of your energy into it. Nobody wins in that scenario, right? So, yeah, I agree, the best leaders I've had have been humble, meek. Meekness is not weakness, right, meekness is strength. In my opinion, who are meek, humble they don't think they're above somebody else, you know, they see people as equals those are the most successful leaders in my mind or successful coaches or parents, or whatever it might be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. So how do you so you know, going from your position now and then how you show up at home? You've got to be two different people, but I'm sure those things bleed over from time to time. How do you sort of compartmentalize those things and it almost is like you know, or do you? Are you the same guy both places?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, at work, I would say I am probably a little more professional than I am at home. My kids are goofballs. I'm a goofball, I'm probably. I share our family life with the team here at work, but I'm probably a 15-year-old level maturity at home. At work I'm a little bit more professional.
Speaker 2:But I want my wife to feel secure, more professional. But yeah, I want my wife to feel secure and so I share stuff with her that you know not to by any means to like put the wool over her eyes or anything, but I share with her the very high level you know. So she knows kind of generally the direction, but don't don't bother too much with the details. That's kind of partly one to keep her informed, partly two to give me a little bit of an outlet. So I don't feel like I'm hiding, you know, absorbing everything. But yeah, I would say, at home I'm very much with my dad growing up, always goofing off. You know, always I felt like a brother, more so than a dad sometimes, and and I value that, and so that's how I am with my, with my kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. So how about with your employees? You know, is there a level of that playfulness and, and you know, goofiness with them? I'm sure there is, to a degree A thousand percent.
Speaker 2:A thousand percent. Yeah, some, some of them have been with us for going on 11 plus years and very much you know they, they, they love life, right, positive energy. We'll give you a quick story. We met with a group who's more in the corporate, publicly traded company and they came to our office and just the energy was different.
Speaker 2:Right, it was just really kind of robotic and focused too much on the numbers and like, numbers are important, right, you got to talk about it, but it was so rigid and I just told my team after I was like you know, man, I'm grateful for the people we work with, cause it's you're with your you're with your colleagues as much as you are with your family, and if you can't enjoy their company, uh, and see them as friends, then then gosh, what are you doing? You know? So we're very much work hard, play hard, you know, and it's also a contribution culture where it's like listen, there's no group thing, like let's disagree, and let's disagree strongly if we need to. It's mostly what's important is what is right, not who is right, and that's pretty much the culture that we've, by design, tried to build who is right, and that's pretty much the culture that we've by design, tried to build.
Speaker 1:So how have you you know what are some of the things that you've done that have you know, kept people around for that amount of time? You have to? I mean, my guess is you do things together in the organization.
Speaker 2:And what's that like? Yeah, ultimate transparency, right, they know the numbers of the business, the good, the bad. How are we doing Aligned incentives, right? So everybody's got skin in the game net profit sharing plan, you know, or units in the business. And then, yeah, we've done stuff together. I wouldn't say crazy, though it's not like we're hanging out on Friday nights, you know, or anything. Some people in the office are, but we've made sure to do stuff to build the camaraderie. But, yeah, ultimate transparency. And then trust and autonomy. It's like I'm holding our team accountable, they're holding me accountable, but they know they've got the autonomy and the trust from me to go do their best work and if I think it can be better, I'll let them know, and vice versa. So I think the combination of transparency, trust and autonomy, and then the type of people in a culture that's designed for contribution, is kind of the ingredients that have created that.
Speaker 1:That makes sense, okay, so what about? How much time do you? Do you do I assume you do one-on-ones, or how do you? You know, as a leader, how do you interact with an employee? Let's say they're going through a divorce. Let's say they're going through, maybe they got a drug or alcohol problem, and do you feel like they can come to you and say, hey, like I'm having this problem, yeah, I need to have a conversation with you, is it? Is that you feel like that's an open door for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and there's, you know, everybody's everybody, I'd say has got got things that they deal with at different times in their lives, and so there's been, there's been times where those things have come up and I think they do feel that where they can, you know, just have a sounding board to voice it, whether it's you know they need to just some reprieve from work while you deal with it or need somebody just to you know to talk to. Yeah, I absolutely feel that. And vice versa, there's been times where you know, like the employees who've been here for many, many years, where I've had things I needed to voice right, I needed a sounding board, I needed a confidant, and they've been that for me. So absolutely I feel like it goes both ways. Both ways feel like they can open up, be vulnerable and have that support group around them to lift them up whenever they're going through those tough times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so do you utilize some sort of a? I assume you probably have a mentor of some sort that has helped you both, maybe in business and and in your personal life. Like who would that you know? You don't have to name their name necessarily, but do you have that person that you just can go to and say this is what I'm going through?
Speaker 2:You know it's a good. That's a good good question, corey I I think if there's one thing I actually could do better, it would be to to to be more vulnerable, like I thought about maybe getting a, you know, a therapist right, just somebody to talk to Cause I.
Speaker 2:I do tend to. I do tend to try to be that resource to others, right, and I think in the process I sometimes neglect that that I need that as well, and so I don't have like a, I take it back. I'd say, like my older brother he lives in Florida, he's kind of that for me and, and to his credit, he proactively reaches out and you know he's checks in and and I feel like any time I've got something that I need to just talk through he's. He's the one I probably go to, my brother, jeff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I mean, once you pour into enough people, your cup gets empty. Yeah, right, right, you got to fill it up somehow. And I do that through, you know, my recovery program. I, you know, I've got, you know, a guy that that works with me one-on-one every week. That is just kind of part of how the program is laid out, and without that person I'm not, you know, I don't know what I would do. But folks that are not in the recovery community, you know, I just think that I don't know. You know, maybe it is a therapist, which I got to believe. That can't be really the same thing, if you're. I mean maybe to a degree, but the authenticity I think with paying a therapist is just not quite going to be there, because I don't pay this individual. He does it out, you know it's just what we do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's really important because it does help me to, you know, to get right sized or to get things off my chest. I really don't know that there's anybody else, um, that I could have those conversations with. However, I will say that I don't think it. I don't think he would care that I said this. You know, jonathan, who we both know, is a good, very good friend of mine and and there's been a few times that he's acted in that position, which was surprising to me because we work together, yeah, but he's just that kind of. He's just that kind of guy and and we just built a level of trust together that you know, at this stage of the game, I know I can go to him with whatever it is I'm struggling with, whether it affects the business or not yeah, I love that and I know he's going to help me.
Speaker 2:That's huge. I think you know that with, like, if your cup's not full, how are you going to be able to help others, right? So if you kind of condition your life to helping others, you know, take care of yourself to, in turn, help others, right, and yeah, that's huge. And yeah, that's huge. That's you know, and I want to be that resource for others, but I definitely want to make sure I don't neglect that for myself as well. You've got to have that right, whether you're a business owner or not. Right, everybody's got to have that you know.
Speaker 1:Sometimes, though, it's hard to you know it's hard to just do something for yourself. Yeah right, it just is for various reasons, but I found that you know it is beneficial. But I think it helps to have a faith as well and a congruency with you know, your partner, your kids and your situation. My guess is they're probably on the same faith field as you're on yeah yeah yes, we can share in those.
Speaker 2:We can share in those, those experiences and values, yeah, yeah, 100 percent um.
Speaker 1:So your target audience are people in the trades. I'm just shifting gears here for a second um. You said your dad was a general contractor. That's kind of where you got the passion for wanting to help people in the trades. Is that right?
Speaker 2:That's spot on Yep People like my dad.
Speaker 1:Right, did you see him struggle with these things? And that's kind of what made you say you know I can help fix this for other people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally so. So the analogy I use is my dad was a master with the tools right, the physical tools with his hands. I've become a master with the digitals, the zeros and the ones and the technology, and so I want to be able to help people, and my dad was not good with those things Like marketing is such a nebulous concept to him, or technology, and and so I want to be able to bring that to those kinds of people, and there's no better people in my mind to help grow their business than those kinds of people in terms of just giving value to good people. So, absolutely, that's that's kind of at the foundation of of my life experience and kind of motivate, one of the motivators behind what we're doing.
Speaker 1:Sure, and how you know, how have you? So you weren't a trades person, right?
Speaker 2:Was that why?
Speaker 1:you never worked in the trades.
Speaker 2:No, my dad would take me to jobs and have me screw the sheetrock. But you know, and do the demo work. That was about it.
Speaker 1:The reason I bring that up is because I'm not a trades person. Like I'm not. I've never. You know I have worked for HVAC companies, don't get me wrong, but I was in sales, so I don't really consider myself a trades person. So I had a hard time breaking into this industry years ago and through sheer will and, just you know, constantly showing up and learning, I was able to get into the industry. So did you find that it was a challenge when you first started in the industry?
Speaker 2:not being from the industry, yeah, there's definitely things you learn right and we had so. So one of the companies before snowball was and we still own the platform, but it's called bestcompanycom. It's like a yelp for home services. That's the reviews piece. That's the history we have with reviews. Um, so, in the course of we started that 2016. In the course of that, we uh, you know, we, we, we talked with a number of home service companies and so kind of learned over time. But there were some, you know, just getting to know that there's there's really big national brands, there's smaller, local two guys in the truck companies and there's different dynamics with those, and so we're still learning. But one thing that I think is ubiquitous is the word of mouth stuff that we do, and then it's just a matter of how does that fit within that company that we're talking to at that time?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting because I don't know that I've heard of any. I mean, I'm sure there's other people doing this, but I don't know that I've really heard of anybody really putting it. You know the word of mouth, because that's the best way to get a referral Right, right.
Speaker 2:I mean there's a lot of tools that do like one piece of it, like you have your referral platform or your review engine, or but we want it. We have a single platform that does all of it and it's done for you, right? So it's not a software where we hand it off to the trace person say, hey, here you go, hey here you go. Dad, like go and try to figure this out. He has no technology, right, he's not comfortable with it. So it's a done-for-you solution in a single platform. And that's the two kind of key differences to the other solutions out there.
Speaker 1:But I think that is a very good point. But I think that is a very good point In this industry, done for you is the way they want it. That's right Because, look, like you said, they're not technologically inclined people. They know how to work with their hands and that's what they want to do. And it's really hard to get these guys to learn technology because it's just not what they want to do. And it's really hard to get these guys to learn technology because it's just not what they want to do.
Speaker 1:And most of the time and that's really why I fit so well in the industry I have ADHD, just like most of these guys. Usually I cuss like a sailor, like a lot. I just I, just I'm, I'm really just like them in a lot of ways, other than I just don't really work with my hands Right. And so I kind of felt at home, you know, because I really I really can vibe with how they do things, cause I, you know, I'm very similar to also know the pitfalls, right.
Speaker 1:I know what I don't like to do Exactly. I just tie that, you know. I just tie my, you know, the things that I don't enjoy doing, or a lot of things they don't enjoy doing. And learning a new piece of technology typically is not my forte unless I can get who hires a bit different Because I know the massive change that it's going to make in the industry and I can get behind something like that and learn it. If I know that Digital marketing is not something I'm going to get behind because I don't want to know about it.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, and it's just it's piecing together a puzzle of these point solutions. Right, you need this solution, this solution, this, and then you need somebody to put it together and then run it. And so we take all that away. And then you need somebody to put it together and then run it, yeah, and so we take all that away. We just say it's here, we'll do it, we'll just plug it. So what you do best and we'll do the rest.
Speaker 1:So what is this All right? So let's talk about you know for the folks listening. Let's talk about what you know. I'm sure people are thinking, well, what is this going to cost me?
Speaker 2:You know how is it affordable? Like, what does that look like? Yeah, we want to make sure, because you know I come from a performance background. So we want to make sure there's a clear ROI here for the company. So typically the way we do it is is you pay an activation fee and it's a 30 to 45 minute onboard call to set the parameters. What that includes is how much do you want to pay for a referral, at what point? Right, we'll suggest messaging, but you give us a thumbs up right within the brand that you want to represent. So there's just some setting the parameters of the program.
Speaker 2:Once that's kind of done, we're off and running. So it's an activation fee one time that can range anywhere from $400 to $1,000. And then we run for two months, no additional cost. So we're talking to your customers, we're getting referrals, we're getting reviews and we want to see it kind of goes both ways. We want to see can we produce and then give them a sense of what that looks like At the end of the two months. It's a monthly fee, a flat monthly fee for a 12-month commitment and the fee is based on how many customers are we talking to. Our variable costs are in our messaging costs. We have somebody here in our Pleasant Grove office who is. They're utilizing automation AI, but they're doing every message, so it's a person. There's a human in the loop.
Speaker 1:And so our pricing will be based on the number of customers we're talking to and it ranges anywhere from $600 a month.
Speaker 2:You know we have some companies paying us $5,000 a month, so it just depends on that number of customers. But again, we want to make sure it's a clear ROI for these companies for them to commit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's just take the $600 a month. Hypothetically, what kind of ROI you know, or what, what a person like that need to see, I mean, or would, what would they see? I guess it would be a better question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. It will depend on industry. You know how much is the order of value of what they're selling. But the way we look at it is, you know they take how much of how much revenue they make on a customer. They bake in the platform costs at $600 a month, and then the referral commissions that they pay the customer for the referrals, and our goal is to get to at least a 4 to 5x return on their investment. Okay, we have some industries where we're seeing high double digits, and so that's our goal. It's like, once you bake in the platform costs and the referral commissions and then your revenue, what do you make in terms of return on that? And then there's all the ancillary benefits. You have somebody who's talking to each customer on a one-to-one basis, building loyalty. You're getting reviews to build your reputation. Each customer on a one-to-one basis, building loyalty. You're getting reviews to build your reputation. So things that are maybe not as quantitative but are still qualitative to your brand and those we feel are kind of the gravy added to the value.
Speaker 1:But yeah, that kind of four to five X returns our target. So, all right, you mentioned reviews, and so I just. I have a really a personal question. You know, I hear that people can buy reviews, or that people can pay people to do reviews. How accurate is that and what does that do to a company? Let's say, you know, I've been in business, for I'm an HVAC company. I've been in business for five years. We've got a thousand reviews, reviews I'm just giving a number here and we want to get to five thousand and I think, all right, well, I'll just pay for reviews. Is that? Is that a thing and does it?
Speaker 2:I'm assuming that probably does go sideways at some point yeah, it does, it's, it's, it's definitely um is a black hat exercise, because you know the, the FTC and even like Google, uh, bestcompanycom, our platform, we have similar kind of guidelines. You can't pay for reviews.
Speaker 1:And you also can't gate reviews.
Speaker 2:What that means is you can't say, hey, did you have a good experience? If yes, go leave a review. If no, okay, then thanks, we don't want to talk to you, um, so you can't gate. So the way we, the way we kind of work around that to get volume of reviews and positive reviews, is we'll start a conversation, introduce their full program. They'll indicate whether or not they're happy, right, and then, if they are, we'll then follow up and ask them for for review.
Speaker 1:But we're not saying, hey, leave us a review.
Speaker 2:Are you happy, yes or no? And then gating. So we tend to get high quality reviews, and we also get reviews not only to bestcompanycom but also to Google. We'll also get them a video testimonial if the person is willing to hop on a video call with us, and so we're trying to get the most out of that happy customer. Not just a single review, we're trying to get multiple assets that they can leverage for their reputation.
Speaker 1:That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. What have you seen in the past when you have seen people that have bought reviews and what happens to their business, because I can't imagine it being a positive thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, eventually they probably. You know, google sniffs it out, or or the platform that reviews on sniffs it out and they get, they get dinged and, um you know, or it just kind of. Sometimes consumers can sniff it. If everything's a five star right and everything's, you know, you can say, okay, this looks game right. They want to see some realness. We talked about realness. Consumers want to see some realness. We talked about realness. Consumers want to see in companies, realness and authenticity, and so when you buy it, sometimes that can be sniffed out. A lot of people do it, right, a lot of people do it. But I think the long-term strategy is realness, real reviews, real customers and not gaining a message.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so all right. I do have one last question about reviews. So if you get a bad review, come in and it's to say it's on google and they say, hey, you sucked, whatever. Yeah, what is your? You know what's the best way. I think I know the answer to this, but what's the best way to handle that? If it's posted, it's out in the open, you know, because I see owners get on there and say, you know some crazy, yeah, yeah, and I just don't think that's the right way to do, because then it shows what's going to happen to you. Yeah, if you leave a bad review, you're going to get cussed out by the owner or whatever it is. Yes, how do you, how do you recommend people handle that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a good question. I mean you can work with the platform to dispute if you don't feel it's honest right, if they're making claims you don't feel they're honest, but if they're just unhappy, you know, take a minute to really kind of turn up your emotional intelligence. Don't react emotionally and realize that what you're presenting is a reflection of your brand to maybe people who are looking at using you as a company right Prospects. And so try, I would always approach it, no matter how angry they are. Always approach it as I'm going to try to turn this detractor into an advocate. I'm going to treat them as I would treat an ambassador of a program or of our company and listen, take feedback, you know, and don't get into a yelling match. It's just not productive, right, it's not productive. So that would be my advice you work with the platform, try to dispute it If you can get it removed. It's not honest, like thebestcompanycom has a dispute process, and then be emotionally intelligent in your response, realizing that it has rippling effects beyond just that conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree for sure. Well, landon, if somebody wants to reach out and ask you about you know, conan and doing some work with Snowball, where would you, where can they find you? Where's the best place? Yeah?
Speaker 2:Great, great question. One of two ways Go to Snowball dot com and set up a call with us, or reach out to me personally on my email Landon at Snowball dot com. Snowball is spelled without the W, so it's S-N-O-B-A-L-L dot com. But yeah, Landon, L-A-N-D-O-N at Snowball or on our site. Either way, on LinkedIn, you know. Wherever you want to find me, we would absolutely love to talk to you and listen, even if you don't use the platform. We'd love to just share best practices, right, If it can help your business. Even if we don't ever exchange a dollar one way or the other, that's okay. We just want to provide value to companies that treat their customers right.
Speaker 1:Makes sense. Well, landon, I appreciate this, my friend, great conversation. Likewise, thanks, clayton Got it.
